Podcast: The Life and Legacy of John Owen (Lee Gatiss)

This text is a part of the The Crossway Podcast sequence.

One of many Biggest Theologians in Historical past

On this episode, Lee Gatiss walks us via the life and occasions of the prolific theologian John Owen, introducing us to the person, his works, and his legacy.

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Take a look at extra episodes of The Crossway Podcast on Church Historical past

Subjects Addressed in This Interview:

Matt Tully
Lee, thanks a lot for becoming a member of me in the present day on The Crossway Podcast.

Lee Gatiss
It’s nice to be right here. Thanks for inviting me.

Matt Tully
As we speak we’re going to speak about John Owen, the theologian from the 1600s. Simply as a approach to introduce us to him and that subject, I wish to learn a quote from the late theologian J. I. Packer, who in his fantastic guide, A Quest for Godliness, introduces readers to John Owen with these phrases. He writes, “Owen was the best amongst Puritan theologians for solidity, profundity, massiveness, and majesty in exhibiting from Scripture God’s methods with sinful mankind. There is no such thing as a one to the touch him.” Do you resonate with that sense that Packer has about Owen? Does that match together with your understanding of his significance?

Lee Gatiss
Most actually. Sure. Particularly when Jim Packer mentioned that Owen is very large, as a result of his works whole someplace within the area of 8 million phrases.

Matt Tully
So by huge you imply his works, not his particular person?

Lee Gatiss
Yeah, there’s lots of him to learn. And as a determine, he was a towering mind and a particularly necessary particular person in the midst of the seventeenth century—one of many biggest theologians that England has ever produced, and a significant participant throughout Oliver Cromwell’s reign as Lord Protector of England, once we tried that temporary and foolish experiment of getting a republic as a substitute of a monarchy.

Matt Tully So if that’s true, if he actually does loom that giant in actually British historical past however Christian historical past extra broadly, communicate to the particular person listening proper now who’s sort of like, Yeah, possibly I believe I’ve heard his title earlier than, however I’ve actually by no means learn something by him. Or possibly there’s individuals listening who’re like, I’ve by no means heard that title. I’ve heard of Martin Luther. I’ve heard of John Calvin. I’ve heard of St. Augustine. However I’ve by no means heard of John Owen. So what do you make of that possibly relative obscurity that he suffers from, in comparison with a few of these different nice figures of church historical past, given how vital he feels like he was?

Lee Gatiss
Nicely, that’s proper. Lots of people haven’t heard of him. They might assume it’s Jesse Owens or one thing like that, but it surely’s actually John Owen. I believe the explanation for which may be one thing else that Jim Packer mentioned about John Owen, which is that generally his works sound just like the roughly dashed off translation of a bit of pondering achieved in Ciceronian Latin. Typically he’s not the best particular person to learn. A few of his works are peppered liberally with Latin, Greek, and Hebrew in every single place. He was an instructional theologian, so lots of his work will not be the best to learn. And of all of the Puritans, he isn’t essentially the most right down to earth in that sense. You’d wish to learn somebody like John Flavel or Richard Sibbes or one other nice Puritan to get a fantastic sense of the Puritans as down-to-earth preachers. Owen is a special sort of man; he’s extra tutorial. He’s identified in tutorial circles, however he’s much less well-known amongst a preferred viewers as a result of a few of his work is extra ponderous and extra obscure. Nonetheless, it’s not all like that. A few of his sermons, after all, are rather more for a preferred viewers, often. A few of them had been addressed to school college students on the College of Oxford, the place he was the vice chancellor of the college. And they’d be somewhat bit simpler to familiarize yourself with. And though he could also be generally obscure, the hassle is vastly repaid as you perceive what he’s saying as a result of he’s an actual theologian of the center who can get to among the coronary heart points that have an effect on us in our discipleship as Christians. He understands the human coronary heart. He understood his personal coronary heart and his personal temptations, his personal struggles with mortification, with despair, and so forth. And so it vastly repays any effort you need to put in to grasp him.

Matt Tully
I wish to return to one thing you mentioned a minute in the past. Did I hear you proper that he printed 8 million phrases throughout all of his works? Is that right?

Lee Gatiss
One thing like that. Sure. About 8 million phrases. His Hebrews commentary, which is certainly one of his largest works, was printed in 4 huge volumes within the 1660s, 1670s, and 1680s. That’s 2 million phrases lengthy. So 2 million phrases of commentary on one guide of the Bible. Admittedly, it’s an enormous guide, Hebrews, but it surely’s not that massive. So his commentary on Hebrews is I believe two or 3 times as massive as your complete Bible, which is kind of one thing, however that’s solely part of his work. That might account for 9 volumes of our new Crossway sequence of John Owen, however that could be a forty-volume sequence, in order that’s solely a couple of quarter of his output. So multiply that by 4 and also you get about eight million phrases.

Matt Tully
I want individuals may see this. We’re speaking proper now over a video name, and also you’re holding up this unimaginable copy of one of many volumes of this four-volume set, and it’s simply the last word model of this outdated, lovely, massive guide that you may sort of think about in your thoughts from lots of of years in the past. When serious about the books that he’s printed, what was his first guide? After which I’d love to listen to what was his final guide that he printed earlier than he died.

Lee Gatiss
That’s a fantastic query. We predict he could have written a guide on the priesthood of Christ, which he mentions sooner or later, as being his earliest guide, however we don’t have that anymore. There’s no guide that we will discover that was printed on that. That materials could effectively have made its approach into among the introductory feedback that he makes on the guide of Hebrews, apparently, as a result of priesthood of Christ is a theme in that.

Matt Tully
Yeah, it matches there.

Lee Gatiss
His first printed work that we now have is a guide towards Arminianism, the alternative of Calvinism, as we regularly say. It’s referred to as A Show of Arminianism. Nicely, it’s really bought a Greek title, but it surely’s usually identified by the English subtitle, A Show of Arminianism. And he was a Reformed theologian and wished to write down towards what he noticed as a downgrading of the gospel within the theological system generally known as Arminianism.

Matt Tully
Why did he title it with a Greek title? We that with different theologians from that period. The language of England on the time was actually not Greek, so what was behind that?

Lee Gatiss
No, certainly it wasn’t. That’s true. One among his nice works, which is an enormous Latin work, is known as Theologoumena Pantodapa, which is an extended Greek title, after which with a Latin subtitle. So we actually want an English translation of that, which is on its approach, I promise you. We’re doing that. It’s a scholarly tick, actually. It’s exhibiting off. It’s a flourish, a rhetorical flourish. It’s figuring out himself as a scholarly tutorial theologian who is aware of what meaning. And there’s a form of understanding look on the viewers, on the potential readership: For those who perceive my Greek title, then after all you’ll recognize my guide.

Matt Tully
Yeah, it’s tutorial signaling there. What was his remaining guide that he printed earlier than his demise?

Lee Gatiss
He was engaged on the ultimate quantity of his Hebrews commentary, which was printed posthumously simply after he died. However I believe the final guide he was engaged on would most likely have been his guide on the glory of Christ, which is a superb factor to be pondering and serious about as you’re in your deathbed, isn’t it? To consider the glory of Christ, who you might be longing to see and who your soul is reaching out for as you die. And that was printed, once more, simply posthumously after he died. However I believe that’s what he was engaged on and serious about as he took his remaining breaths on this world. The glory of Christ. And he’s a really Christ-centered theologian. He has a variety of works on Christ, on Christology, but additionally a beautiful theologian of the Holy Spirit. He wrote 5 volumes of fabric on the Holy Spirit and pneumatologia, which is uncommon. Not many theologians have written fairly a lot on the doctrine of the Holy Spirit. So these are the nice themes of his writing—the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, Christ, and the phrase of God.

Matt Tully
I wish to dig into somewhat bit extra of his private life and what his daily life would possibly’ve been like. However earlier than we go there, only one extra remark about his sort of theological legacy. You talked about that he’s identified for his writings on the Trinity and the Holy Spirit and even simply the striving for holiness as God’s individuals, as God’s kids. Once we take into consideration his legacy theologically, how does he match with different, once more, possibly extra outstanding theologians, like a Luther or a Calvin? We view them, maybe, as pivotal figures, the place they helped to form the trajectory of Christianity in actually massive, notable methods. They helped to spark, say, the Protestant Reformation, within the case of Luther. Does Owen have a legacy like that, or is his somewhat bit totally different or possibly much less, in some methods, influential in comparison with these different guys?

Lee Gatiss
Owen isn’t a world changer in the best way that Luther and Calvin had been. There are only a few world modifications in human historical past. Somebody like Marx or Aristotle may lay declare to that. They’ve modified the entire panorama of mental life and endeavor. Owen will not be that. Owen was born in 1616, the 12 months that Shakespeare died. If you consider it, that’s ninety-nine years after the 95 theses of Luther. So he’s 100 years after the beginning of the Protestant Reformation, so he isn’t combating those self same battles of the early days. He’s an instructional institutionalizer, you would possibly say, a synthesizer. He’s an excellent synthesizer of fabric. He’s making an attempt to defend Reformation insights into the glory of God, into justification by religion alone, salvation by grace alone, and Scripture alone—these solas of the Reformation, you would possibly say. He’s making an attempt to encapsulate these, defend these, and cross these teachings on to a number of generations after the Reformation at a time when these doctrines are beneath rising assault from more and more subtle Roman Catholic and different opponents. And so Owen is making an attempt to defend the fort that Calvin constructed, in the event you like. he’s not constructing the fort himself, however he’s making an attempt to defend that very same fort and creating tutorial (scholastic is the phrase generally used, but it surely simply means tutorial)—he’s making an attempt to develop the tutorial instruments and defenses towards these later assaults on the gospel. In order that’s who he’s and that’s how he matches in. That being mentioned, there are some distinctive issues about him, and he lived at a novel time, so he’s a really totally different determine to Luther and to Calvin.

Matt Tully
And we’ll get into a few of these issues, among the uniquenesses of his time, in only a minute. However possibly earlier than we get there, inform us somewhat bit about Owen the person, about Owen the husband and the daddy. Did he marry and have kids?

Lee Gatiss
He did, sure. He married a woman referred to as Mary, they usually had 11 kids. And I’m positive a lot of your listeners may also have big numbers of kids like that, but it surely’s extra frequent in these days than it’s in the present day. They’d fairly a tragic life actually, as a result of sadly solely a kind of kids survived past infancy, so ten of them died in infancy. And really, the eleventh little one did additionally die earlier than Owen. They’d a extremely troublesome marriage and a troublesome life after which died. So he needed to bury all eleven of his kids. His spouse additionally died, and he remarried after she died. He married a woman referred to as Dorothy as his second spouse. However sure, life wasn’t simple for them as a household.

Matt Tully
What can we learn about how that impacted him? Did he write about these deaths of all of his kids and his spouse? Or can we not have lots of perception into that facet of him?

Lee Gatiss
He’s not terribly autobiographical, we’d say. So he doesn’t ever appear to base his theological assertions on his personal private expertise or attempt to acquire credibility by speaking about what’s occurred to him. You do see a few of this and also you get an perception into among the private lifetime of Owen by studying his letters. There are some letters that survive. He, as a pastor, wrote to a lady within the congregation that he was taking care of who had misplaced a baby. She’s grieving, Owen is making an attempt to point out her the consolation of the gospel, and he doesn’t speak about his personal expertise of dropping ten kids. Nonetheless, he does say in that letter that if she was to throw herself on Christ and search for consolation to him, that Christ can be to her greater than ten kids. And also you understand, if you understand Owen’s life at that time, that that’s really an autobiographical remark, obliquely made. So except you understand him and who he’s, you wouldn’t essentially get that. However he’s speaking about his personal expertise of understanding that Christ is a better consolation in occasions of grief than we may ever think about. So we get some insights like that.

Matt Tully
That’s simply such an unimaginable little clear second, that having somewhat little bit of that context lets you see how really autobiographical that really was.

Lee Gatiss
There are another occasions. I bear in mind studying via the commentary on Hebrews, and I’m trying on the particulars of the Greek exegesis and making an attempt to translate the Latin Hebrew as I’m going. After which all of the sudden, as he’s talking concerning the tears of Christ in Hebrews chapter 5, he has a beautiful little remark, simply all of the sudden, the place he talks about himself. He says, very surprising and out of character and misplaced nearly within the commentary, he says, I don’t understand how different individuals cope, however I’ve usually a lot ado to maintain from longing after the shades of the grave. And that’s simply an perception into the despondency and problem that he had psychologically at the moment. And he wouldn’t have the language that we could have now, I suppose, to specific a few of that. He doesn’t speak about despair or something of that kind, however that’s what’s going on. I lengthy for the shades of the grave and the remainder of one other world. He simply drops that remark in as a result of he understands the tears of Christ are additionally his tears not directly.

Matt Tully
Typically I believe that may be one of many hardest issues about finding out historical past and even studying the phrases of historic figures is we will really feel such a separation from them. And generally once they aren’t as forthcoming with these private particulars like we’re used to being— we’re used to studying books in the present day the place there’s lots of authenticity, so to talk, to the author sharing how they really feel about issues.

Lee Gatiss
Is that the American phrase for narcissism? I don’t know. You referred to as it authenticity, however for some individuals it does come throughout as very individualistic. It’s not Owen’s fashion in any respect. He wouldn’t speak about himself in that form of approach.

Matt Tully
However I believe generally the problem, although, for us as trendy readers is we will sort of overlook that these women and men had been actual people. They had been similar to us in so some ways. And once we learn this tragedy that eleven of his kids died earlier than he did, we will sort of be tempted to assume in some way it wasn’t as unhealthy for him because it feels like it might be if it had been us. However I believe it’s so useful to get these little insights the place we catch a glimpse. And clearly, different figures are extra clear with a few of these issues and we sort of see these had been individuals similar to us in in each approach.

Lee Gatiss
There are some nice vignettes that you may point out about Owen. When his tutorial profession was minimize brief by the rise of Archbishop Laud, who’s the large bogeyman amongst the Puritans. He’s the unhealthy man. All of us go Boo! once we hear Archbishop Laud. Laud got here in and enforced anti-Puritanism upon the College of Oxford. That minimize Owen’s profession brief, and when that occurred, his hopes had been dashed a lot. He was personally so engaged in that and so concerned and related that he hardly spoke to anyone for 3 complete months. However in his writing and in his preaching he thinks he’s standing in a pulpit, he’s addressing you with a phrase from God, so he’s not there to speak about himself. He’s not writing as a result of he’s bought one thing to say about himself. He thinks he’s instructing and preaching to you. And so he’s extra going to be speaking about Christ than speaking about you. He’s making an attempt to remain out of the best way, in a way, in order that the message can come via him to you.

Matt Tully
And that’s the place, such as you mentioned earlier than, possibly that we should always view that as an indication of his humility and the soberness with which he took his function as a trainer and a preacher. Yet one more query about kids. So I do know that he wrote some books for youngsters particularly. Are you able to inform us somewhat bit about these?

Lee Gatiss
After he wrote that guide that I discussed, his first guide towards Arminianism, the Parliament thought that was terrific they usually gave him a job as a minister in a church in Essex referred to as Fordham (Fordham Church in Essex). And whereas he was there as a Church of England parish clergyman, he determined that it’d be a good suggestion to show the kids. And to do this, he wrote some catechisms. And naturally, we’re accustomed to issues just like the Westminster Shorter Catechism. What’s the chief finish of man? The chief finish of man is to glorify God and luxuriate in him endlessly. We’re used to speaking concerning the Heidelberg Catechism or the Westminster Catechism—these massive company endeavors—however a lot of ministers on the time wrote their very own catechisms in an effort to educate the kids of their parishes. And so Owen did the identical, and somewhat primer on learn and write and that form of factor. So he was very a lot engaged in all of the work of the parish, not simply in being the superstar preacher on a Sunday, however making an attempt to show the little ones as effectively.

Matt Tully
One other fascinating reality about Owen that I got here throughout as I used to be making ready to speak to you in the present day was that he really performed a job, possibly a major function, within the publication of John Bunyan’s basic guide, The Pilgrim’s Progress. Inform us somewhat bit about what occurred there.

Lee Gatiss
Proper. John Bunyan is in jail, after all, for unlawful conventicles and praying in extemporary methods quite than by utilizing the liturgy of the Church of England, which he wasn’t licensed to make use of anyway as a result of he wasn’t ordained. So Bunyan’s in jail. However he’s a Puritan and he has comparable convictions to Owen on some issues. And Owen is aware of him. They’re accustomed to one another. So when Owen’s publishing his commentary on Hebrews, the primary quantity of that in 1668, it’s printed by Nathaniel Ponder, who’s the bookseller and the writer who places that guide collectively. And this was Ponder’s first guide—the commentary on Hebrew—and it was fairly a troublesome guide to place collectively, you possibly can think about. However Owen then says, Hey, it is best to publish one other guide, and let me introduce you to my good friend John Bunyan. He’s a fantastic author. He’s undoubtedly bought a guide in him. And so Nathaniel Ponder, who’s Owens’ writer and printed this deep work of exegesis on Hebrews, Ponder publishes Pilgrim’s Progress and turns into generally known as Pilgrim Ponderas a result of Pilgrim’s Progress is a runaway success.

Matt Tully
Was it a hit immediately? Was it a bestseller proper out of the gate when it was printed?

Lee Gatiss
Yeah, and it’s by no means been out of print, and it’s in lots of of languages and tens of millions of editions. That is among the bestselling books of all time throughout all of the centuries. So sure, and we now have Owen to thank for that.

Matt Tully
Yeah, that’s unimaginable. I additionally learn that Owen tried, unsuccessfully finally, however tried a number of occasions to truly assist Bunyan get out of jail, as a result of he was in jail for therefore a few years. Why did he fail? Why was he not capable of pull the strings essential? As a result of Owen was a reasonably influential, well-known determine on the time and theoretically had some political energy, did he not?

Lee Gatiss
Nicely, the factor is we glance again from our century and we glance again to the seventeenth century and it appears to be like like one massive blob of seventeenth century. However really, if you’re within the midst of it, it has mountain peaks and troughs and plateaus. The lay of the land on the time for Owen was totally different, relying on which 12 months you had been in. So he’s a rising star within the 1640s, and he’s on the peak of his energy and affect within the 1650s beneath Oliver Cromwell. He’s vice chancellor of the college, dean of a cathedral church and school in Oxford, and a widely known superstar author and chief. After which in 1662, he’s ejected from the church, with the restoration of the monarchy in 1660 and the brand new regime. He’s ejected. He’s within the wastelands. He’s within the desert with no affect, actually, and he’s in exile in that sense inside his personal nation. And though he’s nonetheless alive, he isn’t got rid of by the brand new regime in revenge or something, he does have some entry to the king as a number one non-conformist. He does go and see the king on a few events to talk to him. At one level the king mentioned to him, Why do you knock round with this man Bunyan? Isn’t he similar to a tinker or one thing? What do you wish to do with him? He’s not a fantastic tutorial like you might be. And Owen simply mentioned to him, Nicely, your majesty, I’d gladly quit all my studying to have the ability to preach like John Bunyan.

Matt Tully
Oh, wow.

Lee Gatiss
And Owen did go earlier than the king on events to say, Please are you able to not persecute the nonconformists fairly a lot? It didn’t at all times work as a result of Owen wasn’t in energy anymore. So though he had some entry often when it was allowed, he didn’t have the ability that he could have wielded some years earlier than.

Matt Tully
I additionally learn, associated to that, that Owen was maybe surprisingly an advocate for non secular toleration in a approach which may resonate with us in the present day in some methods however might need been somewhat bit out of step in some methods together with his personal day. Inform us extra about his efforts to advertise that sort of toleration.

Lee Gatiss
That’s a fairly an fascinating and distinctive form of factor about Owen is that even when he’s in energy, so to talk—the chaplain to Oliver Cromwell, the preacher for the council of state, and he’s showing in parliament to evangelise and so forth—even then he’s advocating for a type of toleration of others. So he’s not making an attempt to make all people within the nation right into a congregationalist, which is what he finally decides he’s. He begins as an ordained Anglican minister, ordained by a bishop, and he flirts with the concept of Presbyterianism, which many individuals do earlier than they develop out of it. There’s a twinkle in my eye as I say that. However he flirts with Presbyterianism (a few of my finest pals are Presbyterians), however then he finally decides, beneath the affect of an American author John Cotton who’s English however dwelling in America, that he might be a Congregationalist. However Owen doesn’t assume that everyone needs to be a Congregationalist, however that we should always have a system whereby you might be tolerated beneath the umbrella of a Protestant Reformed settlement. And so long as you possibly can signal as much as sure staple items, that try to be allowed to be having your individual church buildings and ministers and so forth. And in order that’s fascinating. He’s wanting toleration even when he’s in cost. And he fights for that very same form of toleration when he’s not in cost, when he’s on the surface. He’s nonetheless making an attempt to advocate for that form of toleration. I believe that has an affect on individuals like John Locke, who may be very influential over the American Revolution, or the unlawful Colonial revolt of 1776 some years later.

Matt Tully
I suppose that’s relying in your perspective.

Lee Gatiss
Exactly, sure. Precisely. “You’ll be again,” as George III says within the musical Hamilton, which is a scurrilous piece of American propaganda, however there we’re. So I believe Owen’s concepts of toleration beneath an umbrella of Reformed Protestantism are very influential sooner or later. In fact, he’s not tolerant of all the things. He doesn’t need toleration for Roman Catholics as a result of they’re additionally a gift army and political menace to the nation. And naturally, many Protestants and Reformed theologians at the moment would have referred to as Roman Catholicism evil. The Pope is the antichrist! they might have mentioned. So there was no toleration for that. And equally, he didn’t need toleration for anti-Trinitarianism. That was an evil scourge that needed to be eradicated and never allowed to operate within the state. And the state should implement that. The state should be telling individuals to not preach towards justification by religion alone and to not be preaching towards the Trinity. And that’s one thing the Justice of the Peace, the state, should be implementing. So it’s fascinating as a result of he doesn’t imagine in that trendy American heresy of the separation of church and state both. The previous is a special nation. They do issues in another way there.

Matt Tully
Yeah. Completely. Taking an enormous step again, as you consider Owens—his life, his ministry as an instructional, as a pastor, his preaching and theology—we’ve talked loads about a few of his strengths and his insights into issues that we will study from him even in the present day. What would you say are a few of his greatest blind spots, in your opinion, as you assume again about his legacy?

Lee Gatiss
His greatest blind spots. Wow. Clearly, he ought to have remained an Anglican, which is what I’m, in order that’s clearly his greatest blind spot.

Matt Tully
That’s a reasonably large one.

Lee Gatiss
He ought to have seen the prevalence of the Anglican approach. No, I don’t actually imagine that. That’s a extremely fascinating query. He would have had hassle seeing the later concepts of toleration, for instance, that we now maintain to and the concept of the separation of church and state, which many maintain to within the States and elsewhere. He simply wouldn’t have seen that as a good suggestion. He couldn’t see how that may operate and have a secure society. Possibly he was proper. Do we now have secure societies now? I don’t know. There have been limits to his creativeness in that sense. It’s such query. I’m unsure I can provide you with a greater reply than that proper now, and it’ll be one thing I’m pondering late at evening. I gained’t be capable of sleep tonight after that one, Matt. Thanks for asking me that.

Matt Tully
That’s all proper. That’s good. So then in the event you had been to summarize, chatting with a listener in the present day, a pastor in the present day, or once more, a layperson who does have a love for theology and a love for church historical past, in the event you needed to summarize, why would you say Owen is value investing possibly some effort in to learn in the present day?

Lee Gatiss
Due to the depth of his insights into the human coronary heart and the human situation in a few of his utilized theology, significantly his works on mortification of sin, his works on indwelling sin, and his sermons utilized to the human coronary heart. There are some nice insights there into how we operate and the way we should operate. And in addition due to the profundity of his theological pondering. As I say, he’s not often a novel and world-changing theologian. He’s synthesizing one of the best of the Protestant Reformed custom, and defending that towards more and more subtle enemies. However he does generally come out with one thing that’s simply so good that you simply had been dwelling on it for a very long time. There are some actually pithy feedback, as an example, in certainly one of his books on sin. He says, “Be killing sin, or it will likely be killing you.” And that’s so good. I’ve bought it on a mug. I imply, you possibly can drink your morning espresso and do not forget that. However at different occasions he’s dwelling deeply on the doctrine of the Trinity, for instance. As a result of there are anti-Trinitarians round, he’s thought loads about defend the reality of the Trinitarian gospel towards these individuals. And so when he’s preaching on the Trinity, he does in certainly one of his books referred to as Communion with the Triune God he comes up with one thing that may be very uncommon, which is a novel concept within the historical past of theology, which isn’t dodgy, as a result of usually in the event you hear one thing novel in theological circles, it’s often heretical. However on this concept Owen says we now have distinct communion with the Father, distinct communion with the Son, and distinct communion with the Spirit as a result of they’re three individuals in a single God. And so we now have distinct communion relationship with each. And he developed that from Scripture as to what our distinct relationship with every particular person is. And nobody had actually achieved that. Nobody had developed that thought. And he does it whereas constrained by Nicene orthodoxy, so he’s very cautious in the best way that he formulates these issues inside the Western Catholic custom of Augustine and so forth. However it’s a new concept that’s effectively value dwelling on. Additionally, his exegesis of the guide of Hebrews. I imply, it’s lengthy. And in the event you’re going to evangelise on Hebrews and use Owen as your commentary assist, then possibly you wish to select small sections of the guide and preach a verse or two at a time quite than complete chapters, since you give your self loads to learn that approach. However his commentary is on the chopping fringe of the appliance of Hebraic Judaism works to the examine of the New Testomony in his day. Nobody was actually studying all the Hebraic sources and the works of the rabbis, medieval rabbis, and early first century Talmud, Mishnah, and so forth and making use of these to the examine of the New Testomony in the best way that he was. Few individuals did that. John Lightfoot right here in Cambridge was doing that with the Gospels; Owen does it with Hebrews in a approach that’s groundbreaking and nearly unrepeated since.

Matt Tully
So he was a real tutorial in his time.

Lee Gatiss
Sure. Deep pondering, tutorial. He would have talked loads in Latin as a result of that was the language of the lecture corridor on the time, so he’d be wandering round these hallowed hallways in Oxford, crossing the quads and chatting with his fellow college students and teachers in Latin, lecturing in Latin, writing in Latin. Nonetheless, Owen generally in his English feels like he’s talking Latin and simply translating it concurrently in his head into some type of English. However it’s shocking that of all of the works he wrote, just one or two volumes are in Latin. Most of it’s English as a result of he does have that concept that It needs to be in a language that’s understood by the individuals and we shouldn’t gown all the things up in tutorial Latin. That being mentioned, he may write at that stage if he wished to and for the tutorial group.

Matt Tully
Possibly a remaining query. I ponder in the event you may deliver Owen into our modern-day for a second and provides us a way for possibly how he would have responded or considered sure points which can be necessary to us in the present day. And so the principle one I consider is simply the denominational divisions that we see round us. It looks as if it’s nearly a truism to say that the evangelical church, each within the US and overseas, however significantly in Europe possibly greater than different locations, there’s this fracturing taking place the place we will see increasingly divisions—much less of them theological in nature, maybe, however political at occasions or associated to social points and considerations. If Owen had been alive in the present day, what do you assume he would make of or what would he consider the denominational and the ecclesiastical divisions within the church in the present day?

Lee Gatiss
He would lament these, as we do (I hope), as a result of unity within the gospel, within the reality, is so necessary within the Bible. As a result of it’s necessary to God. The Holy Spirit is a spirit of unity. He was making an attempt to construct the church as a dwelling place for God in unity in Christ and that all the things is beneath Christ. And we ought to take care of that unity of the Spirit within the bond of peace. So he would lament the fracturing of the church and the doctrinal downgrading of the church. The dearth of concern for doctrine in lots of components of the church can be an enormous concern to him as a result of it isn’t nearly our interior emotions, the interior gentle that we’d have. I really feel God is like this. I really feel God is like that. There’s a reality, a deposit of divine revelation that we now have. And so he would lament the neglect of that in massive swathes of the church. And he would wish to work for an evangelical unity in fact. So I believe that’s how he would reply to that. I believe he’d be shocked by the place we’re as societies in the best way that revisionist social ethics and cultural norms have modified so dramatically with the decline of Christianity all through the West. That might be deeply, deeply surprising to him. Though the Puritans had been making an attempt to reform the society that they had been in, it was an ongoing factor, and he’d be appalled on the approach we failed to interact and didn’t attempt to change our societies and our church buildings in that regard. So yeah, clearly he can be orthodox, Protestant, Reformed, conventional, biblical by way of the fashionable moral points. So if we take into consideration abortion or similar intercourse marriage and issues like that, he would very a lot stand with those that are conservative or conventional or biblical—no matter phrases you wish to use to explain that—and little question would write hefty tomes towards why the opposite facet had been flawed on these points. He can be amused, I’m positive, to know that he was on the identical facet because the Roman Catholic Church on a few of these moral problems with the day.

Matt Tully
What concerning the broader political panorama that we’re in—in our nation particularly but additionally in Nice Britain and elsewhere in Europe— the place we additionally see political polarization rising. And generally we will sort of say we stay in essentially the most polarized occasions within the historical past of the world or within the historical past of our nation. How would he reply to one thing like that? What perspective may he deliver to that?

Lee Gatiss
He would say, Are you in the midst of a civil struggle? Since you’re not. And he was. He actually was dwelling in a time of civil struggle. And he went to struggle with Oliver Cromwell, the nice normal. He noticed the battlefield. He was there with Cromwell when he fought the Scots and the Irish, making an attempt to deliver the Celtic fringe to heel. He was there and he knew individuals within the military. His brother was within the military. He was used to a time of turmoil and polarization and instability. Within the 1660s, when he’s on the surface and never in energy, he was watched by the authorities. They got here to his church to hearken to his sermons. At one level he was caught on the street by informers and solely simply had managed to flee. The authorities, the FBI of the day, raided his home at one level, they usually didn’t discover a lot of secret paperwork that he shouldn’t have had and categorized issues he ought to have given again. No, they discovered that he had six packing containers of pistols. Six packing containers of pistols, as a result of, clearly, he felt that that is such an unstable time, I must maintain maintain of a little bit of a private non-public arsenal. Now, I do know that in the event you stay in Texas, six packing containers of pistols is paltry and probably not very a lot. However for most individuals, that’s quite a bit. And it simply reveals, as somewhat vignette there, that he’s dwelling in very unstable occasions. He may effectively have misplaced his head or been burned on the stake or one thing in his day, and we don’t have a tendency to do this these days, besides on Twitter.

Matt Tully
Do we all know what he was planning on doing with all these weapons? Was there any indication? Was he a part of some rebellion or was all of it simply private safety or one thing?

Lee Gatiss
There have been ideas that he was concerned in sure plots all through that interval after the restoration of the monarchy. He was very near some individuals within the military, some former commanders within the Republic military, and so he could have simply been taking care of the weapons for a good friend, as they are saying.

Matt Tully
That’s tremendous suspicious.

Lee Gatiss
We glance again and we will see that the restoration of the monarchy did take. It held. However he didn’t know that. You don’t know in the midst of the 1660s, the place there’s army defeat by the hands of the Dutch, the comets which can be within the sky, the nice hearth, the plague—all these could have been portents of nice upheaval and the shaking of the nations that he thought was nonetheless taking place, and we could get one other civil struggle. So he didn’t know that. So it’s private insurance coverage in that sense, but additionally his shut ties to components of the army—the Cromwellian army—most likely account for the truth that he had somewhat stash of weapons, simply in case.

Matt Tully
Thanks a lot, Lee, for introducing us to Owen, an enchanting determine, possibly extra fascinating, extra intriguing than we even would have anticipated coming into this. However we recognize you taking the time to do this and are so enthusiastic about this forty quantity set of Owen’s full works that you simply and plenty of others are serving to to provide with Crossway.

Lee Gatiss
Good to speak to you in the present day, Matt. Thanks.

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