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Is there a dichotomy between the wrathful God of the Previous Testomony and the merciful God of the New Testomony? On this episode, Wes McAdams and Marco Arroyo discover how our understanding of God’s nature can profoundly form our personal identities and relationships. The dialog additionally tackles the essential situation of the right way to reconcile God’s love and style along with his judgment and wrath in opposition to sin.
By way of a considerate and nuanced dialogue, Wes and Marco unpack biblical ideas which can be central to understanding God’s true nature. They discover the depths of God’s mercy, grace, and forgiveness, and the way these attributes are usually not restricted to the New Testomony however permeate the complete biblical narrative. Additionally they make clear the significance of God’s wrath and judgment, not as contradictory to his love, however as a essential expression of his holiness and justice. The dialog emphasizes the necessity to view God’s character and actions by the lens of his final goodness and want for restoration.
Marco Arroyo is the preacher for the Seagoville Church of Christ and the host of the “In Between Sundays” YouTube channel. With a ardour for serving to individuals see Jesus in each side of life, Marco brings a singular perspective to the dialogue, drawing from his personal journey of understanding and embracing the true nature of God. His experiences and insights provide a relatable and refreshing method to wrestling with advanced theological ideas.
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Transcript (Credit score: Beth Tabor)
Welcome to the Radically Christian Bible Research Podcast. I’m your host, Wes McAdams. Right here we now have one objective: Study to like like Jesus. On at this time’s present, we’re going to speak concerning the mercy and the goodness of God. My visitor at this time is Marco Arroyo. He’s the preacher for the Seagoville Church of Christ. He’s additionally the host of the “In Between Sundays” YouTube channel. I actually encourage you to take a look at his movies. He’s doing an important work there.
I wish to start at this time by studying from 1 John 4, beginning with verse 7. John says this: “Beloved, allow us to love each other, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and is aware of God. Anybody who doesn’t love doesn’t know God, as a result of God is love. On this the love of God was made manifest amongst us, that God despatched his solely Son into the world, in order that we would dwell by him. In that is love, not that we now have beloved God however that he beloved us and despatched his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so beloved us, we additionally ought to like each other. Nobody has ever seen God; if we love each other, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.”
As all the time, I hope that this dialog is pleasing and inspiring, however most of all, I hope that it helps all of us be taught to like like Jesus.
WES: Marco Arroyo, welcome to the podcast, Brother.
MARCO: I’m actually completely happy to be with you, man. Actually am glad to be speaking to you.
WES: Properly, I’m so completely happy to lastly have you ever on the podcast. I’ve been watching a variety of your YouTube movies recently, and I actually encourage individuals to go take a look at your YouTube channel since you’re doing such an important job and it’s such a singular channel, and also you kind of spotlight various things which can be happening on the earth and take a look at it by a Biblical, godly lens, and I believe it’s actually cool what you’re doing.
MARCO: Yeah, it’s actually encouraging to listen to that. That’s all I’m attempting to do. You recognize, the title of the channel is “In Between Sundays,” and that’s actually the thought behind it. I simply need individuals to have the ability to take a look at the issues which can be occurring in our lives or on the earth in between Sundays and to see Jesus in that. And, you understand, I like the thought of ‑‑ we’re studying to like like Jesus within the Radically Christian Bible Research podcast, and it’s form of an identical thought there, too: Simply see Jesus in every part, and we actually can within the Christian life, so I actually respect you saying that.
WES: That’s superior. Properly, we had espresso not too way back and we talked about a variety of various things. One of many issues that we talked about is that I believe we’re presupposed to be altering as individuals. As followers of Jesus, we’re presupposed to be consistently rising and turning into totally different individuals and permitting the Spirit of God to rework us, and that in all probability implies that our view of God, our theology goes to alter over time. It’s going to evolve. It’s going to be hopefully higher so we’re going to have a greater understanding of who God is and his character and his nature now than we had earlier than, so I’d love to only begin with that. How has your theology, your view of God, his character and his nature ‑‑ how has that modified over time?
MARCO: If I needed to provide the quick reply, I’ll say God has been getting higher and higher over time. He’s been getting higher and higher. Now, simply to preface it, a variety of the instances once I discuss like what my development course of has been in my understanding of God and I begin from the very starting, there have been many individuals who I’ve been speaking to the place they form of go, like, “New‑convert Marco was form of a dummy,” and I agree with you; he was form of a dummy. However for each response that I’ve had like that, there has additionally been a, “You recognize, the best way that you just used to view God” ‑‑ and there have been problematic ways in which I seen God once I was a more moderen Christian ‑‑ “I used to view God that manner, too, and I believed I used to be the one one,” and that all the time lifts my spirits a lot, so I’m more than pleased to, like, share my foolishness on this space, largely as a result of it’s such a testomony to God’s goodness on me.
And so, earlier than I turned a Christian, it was, “God is nice on a regular basis,” and if I wished to get actual loopy with it, “On a regular basis, God is nice.” And, you understand, it’s the essential stuff individuals say: God is love, John 3:16, issues like that. However once I began to turn into a Christian, I used to be within the strategy of finding out the Bible. I used to be studied with for like a 12 months, and I used to be in highschool on the time, in Los Angeles, California the place I used to be raised, and that’s once I began to be confronted with the truth of my sin, and I hadn’t actually taken that so severely earlier than.
And so once I turned a Christian, I used to be very, very new in confronting the truth of my sin and who I used to be in relation to God. And so, then, my concept of God was nearer to, God is nice, however you higher get it collectively quick; in any other case, God will probably be simply as readily ‑‑ he’ll punish you as readily as he was to save lots of you; and as fast as he was to save lots of you, he’ll simply as shortly destroy you. And it’s so humorous as a result of, not very lengthy after that, I got here into contact with “Sinners within the Palms of an Offended God,” that, you understand, 1700s sermon, Jonathan Edwards, and there’s a line in there in direction of the tip. One of many quotes of it’s, “And there’s no different cause to be given why you haven’t dropped into hell because you arose within the morning however that God’s hand has held you up.” And each day I used to be pondering, God is so good and merciful to me, however that was the concept I had of how God seen me. It’s like this loathsome creature is form of what Jonathan Edwards talks about, and he so badly needs to punish you. He’s form of ready so that you can, you understand, commit sin and stuff like that.
And it took some time, and I used to be telling you that after a variety of research of the Previous Testomony, my understanding of God improved so very a lot. I bear in mind, at one level, pondering, I don’t suppose I’m making it to heaven more often than not, and I’m attempting so exhausting to be extra like Jesus each single day, and I’d learn Hebrews 11, and just like the very subsequent factor ‑‑ subsequent smartest thing under Jesus are these individuals, Hebrews 11. And so I’m telling myself like, okay, effectively, I wish to examine these individuals, then. After which I begin to research into their lives, and people had been some problematic individuals. They’re mendacity and plotting and scheming and deception, all these items. And I’m going, so how did these individuals make it? I imply, I’ve finished some foolish issues, however like in 1 Samuel 21, David is like spitting on himself and pretending to be loopy, and that’s not even the worst of the stuff that he did. And so I spotted their lives, their salvation ‑‑ they weren’t depending on the extent of goodness that that they had attained to, they’d reached, however the goodness of the God who saved them regardless of them, regardless of who they had been.
And so, earlier than, it was, how does God really feel about sin? He hates it, needs to punish it, and he’ll punish it. He’s in opposition to it. And so then I believed, effectively, I wrestle and I sin. I do that always, so then meaning God feels that manner about me. And over time, my view finally turned, God provides mercy as a result of he’s good, and he needs to save lots of me, not as a result of I’m good, as a result of he’s good. It’s not contingent on my perfection. It’s truly regardless of my imperfection, God needs to save lots of me. And, man, each time I take into consideration the years that I spent not taking a look at God that manner ‑‑ even now I battle again tears eager about it as a result of God is so extremely good, and that’s why I say, briefly, he’s simply getting higher and higher as the times go by. He’s getting so a lot better each single day as I come to know him extra.
WES: Yeah. You recognize, it’s humorous, as you had been speaking how a lot our theology impacts our anthropology and even our private identification and the way we take into consideration ourselves ‑‑ it’s so fascinating. As you had been speaking, I bear in mind having a dialog, once I first began preaching, and somebody mentioned ‑‑ it might have been me who mentioned that after we take into consideration ourselves in relation to God, it’s like we’re a flea. After which another person mentioned, no, no, no, it’s like we’re ‑‑ it’s like we’re the small toe of a flea. And another person mentioned, no, no, no, it’s like we’re the hangnail on the small toe of a flea. And we do ‑‑ we now have been taught, I believe, or we now have in some way been skilled to suppose that we’re this, you mentioned, loathsome creature, and I believe the extra we perceive scripture, the extra we perceive the Good Information story, it doesn’t paint humanity that manner. It doesn’t even paint sinful humanity that manner. It doesn’t paint us as being the hangnail on the small toe of a flea. It paints us as being the top of God’s creation. That sure, we’ve sinned and we’ve fallen quick, however God loves us a lot that he needs to redeem us and restore us to the place the place he created us to be. He needs us to rule and reign with him. He needs to glorify us. He needs to exalt us, and Jesus is that plan. In any other case, it doesn’t even make sense. The Good Information, the gospel, doesn’t even make sense if we actually are as horrible as we’ve been taught to consider ourselves. And so I believe a proper understanding of God does assist us have a proper understanding of ourselves, perhaps.
MARCO: Yeah. The plain verse with that is John 3:16, and the best way I’d learn John 3:16 was, effectively, that love that God had for me is what introduced me to my preliminary level of salvation, and now that I’m a Christian, it’s on me, and it’s utterly on me, and so God is simply ready across the nook for me to fail in order that he can punish me as a result of that’s what he does, and that basically did have an effect on me for a very long time. You recognize, earlier on once I was a Christian, there was ‑‑ like nearly immediately once I turned a Christian, with all of the sweetness, there was nearly on the spot bitterness and fear due to that, and it’s so unhappy to consider that. I bear in mind once I was baptized there have been Christians who instructed me ‑‑ they go, like, “Get pleasure from this second. Benefit from the purity that you just really feel on this second.” And I don’t know the way they meant that precisely, however the best way I took it was, this can be a fleeting factor and really quickly I’m going to return to my common life, and my habits, my weaknesses, my shortcomings weren’t chained to the water ‑‑ contained in the water of the baptistry, and so that basically did current itself in a extremely ugly manner.
I bought deflated in a short time after I turned a Christian. I didn’t, you understand, depart God or something, however I used to be deflated as quickly as I began to be confronted with all these shortcomings. And I didn’t understand that John 3:16 is not only what brings me to salvation at one level, nevertheless it’s my complete relationship with God. Jesus did extra than simply make provisions to permit individuals to as soon as ‑‑ to initially be saved. You recognize, you learn Hebrews 2:18. He aids those that are tempted. Each single day, this can be a ‑‑ as we are saying, a day by day stroll with Christ, and it’s all made potential due to the holy love that he provides to us. So, yeah, Jesus didn’t do what he did for fleas or hangnails on fleas.
WES: I’ve heard so many individuals say, over time, that it will be higher if somebody drowned within the baptistry than that they get raised up after which dwell a life the place they’re going to inevitably proceed to sin indirectly, that that’s essentially the most forgiven ‑‑ I’ve heard individuals say issues like that. “That is essentially the most forgiven you’ll ever be,” or “essentially the most cleansed you’ll ever be,” or “the purest you’ll ever be.” And I’ve preached from the pulpit a number of instances that that’s nonsense, that I’m as forgiven proper now, as I sit right here, as I used to be 20 years in the past once I was baptized. I’m simply as forgiven now as I’ve ever been due to the continuing forgiveness of Jesus, that he’s, proper now, my excessive priest. He’s interceding for me, and his sacrifice is as soon as for all, not just for all individuals, however for all of my sin.
And that modifications the best way ‑‑ in actual fact, that leads me to my subsequent query, is, how does this concept of God ‑‑ as your understanding of God, your theology, because it has continued to develop, and your appreciation of the goodness and the mercy of God, how does that have an effect on different areas of our life? I believe so usually we compartmentalize our life and we take into consideration our theology simply as being our “non secular life,” quote‑unquote, and never recognizing that, truly, our theology and having good theology, it impacts each space of our life. So how has that affected you and the way have you ever seen good theology or dangerous theology have an effect on each space of individuals’s lives?
MARCO: Properly, I’ve undoubtedly been on each side of the dangerous and good theology. I’ve undoubtedly been on each side. I bear in mind, within the week once I turned a Christian, that sense of being deflated occurred a pair instances. I bear in mind the primary time I felt the necessity to avert my eyes. I felt so deflated, and I believed, there goes that purity that I had once I was baptized. There’s a model of that I first heard in Costa Rica once I was doing mission work one time. They had been baptizing some individuals in waters which were recognized to have both crocodiles or gators, no matter Costa Rica has. They usually go, you understand, if certainly one of these guys will get eaten by these items, that’s the perfect time, you understand? And I get the thought strategy of it, nevertheless it’s so unsuitable on the similar time. I bear in mind somebody smashed the window of my automotive once I was a brand new Christian, the very first week. And, I imply, I had an concept of who it was, and once I inform you ‑‑ I wished to go mafia on this man. I bear in mind I used to be so mad, and I restrained myself. I didn’t curse. I didn’t do something that I wanted to repent for, however even then I felt so deflated that, ugh, there goes that purity. Even the impulse for uncontrolled anger, I simply ‑‑ there goes that, too.
And so the best way that the dangerous theology on this space and our view of God would have an effect on our lives is it simply robs you of the consolation of being positive of your relationship with God. I can’t even inform you what number of nights I spent going, I’m simply actually undecided. I do know that I turned a Christian at one level, however I’m simply undecided at this time. God is nice on a regular basis, however he’s not going to be so good to me if I fall in need of who he’s, and I completely fall in need of who he’s. So all day lengthy, I ‑‑ right here’s what this dangerous theology did to me. I used to be repenting all day lengthy, all day lengthy, and never as a result of I used to be truly sinning that a lot, however any single time I considered myself, I simply considered my weaknesses, my shortcomings, and who I used to be in mild of who God is, and I simply repented all day lengthy. I’d repent once I heard a sermon and discovered one thing new. I imply, I used to be consistently on this distress. To say that that’s dangerous theology is truthfully an understatement. It robbed me of a lot pleasure. It’ll rob you of peace. It’ll rob you of blessings that God has so that you can stroll in and to take pleasure in however you suppose that these aren’t for you as a result of, effectively, you’re not utterly like Jesus at this level of your life.
And so each time I take into consideration that, I simply suppose reward be to God, as a result of over time of studying and sincere consideration of myself in mild of God’s Phrase, the reality is simply inevitable. My view of Christianity has gone from “It doesn’t get any higher than this” to “You simply do not know how good God is. You don’t have any concept how good he’s, Marco.” And I can solely think about our Father taking a look at new‑Christian Marco and going, “You don’t have any concept how good it’s going to be.” And these phrases are true, Wes: There’s subsequently now no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus, who don’t stroll in line with the flesh, however in line with the Spirit. Our God is so good, and the data which you can ‑‑ you may know that there isn’t any condemnation for you in Christ Jesus ‑‑ I can really say each day I’m happier. Day by day I’m extra joyful. Each single day I’m extra grateful. The extra I find out about who God is, I learn the way good he’s, and each day will get higher. It really ‑‑ it’s not only a saying that I’d say to a brand new Christian. Day by day will get sweeter. It’s the perfect. Our God is so, so good.
WES: Yeah. Properly, I take into consideration how timid it makes us after we are consistently afraid that God hasn’t forgiven us or that we’ve, you understand, tousled an excessive amount of or one thing like that and the way we turn into self‑absorbed and we don’t attain out. I used to be pondering that it’s wonderful the life to which we’re referred to as in Christ, to be brave and to lose our life, if essential, to not have any concern of dying, however what number of Christians are afraid of dying or the second coming of Jesus as a result of they’re afraid, “Oh, you understand, I’m undecided.” I’ve recognized so many older Christians who’ve walked with the Lord for many years and so they get to the tip of their life and so they’re frightened, “I haven’t finished sufficient, I’ve tousled an excessive amount of. Perhaps I’m not likely saved,” and they also’re afraid of the judgment of God after they ought to have the ability to dwell their life with such Godly abandon, the place we’re saying, “I’m not afraid of dying. I’m not afraid.”
So whether or not you’re younger or outdated, we ought to have the ability to go to a harmful place or we ought to have the ability to put our life on the road with none concern as a result of we all know, “I’m going to be resurrected to everlasting life. What can man do to me?” And we’re not afraid of dying as a result of we all know that our God loves us and he’s going to boost us to life. However we turn into so afraid and fearful and timid and self‑absorbed when it’s all about, you understand, “I’ve bought to guarantee that I don’t make this indignant God much more indignant with me,” and “I’ve bought to guarantee that I keep on his good facet,” in order that we don’t dwell our lives with this brave, fearless abandon the place we’re not afraid of the issues that the world is afraid of.
MARCO: Can I touch upon that being self‑absorbed for a second? Right here’s a technique it’ll maintain you again when you’ve got that unsuitable view of God. You’ll turn into self‑absorbed, and though you understand that that’s unsuitable, right here’s what you’ll do, and also you received’t understand that you just’re being self‑absorbed. You’ll cease your self from being a blessing to Christians who want you. You’ll say, “I’m unqualified. I bought all these issues. I can’t give any counsel to this individual. I can’t be of any encouragement to them. I don’t even know if I must be praying for them,” or one thing like that. However you’ll inform your self that you just’re unqualified otherwise you’ll do that. You’ll go, “Earlier than I may help all them, I’ve bought to assist myself. I’ve bought issues of my very own. I’ve bought my very own weaknesses to type out. So earlier than I may help this different Christian who’s perhaps a more moderen Christian than I’m and wishes somebody to form of take them by the hand, that’s not going to be me. I’ve bought to seek out one of many good Christians or nearly‑good Christians to do this.”
So that you’ll suppose that you just’re prioritizing your relationship with God, however you’re not. You’re truly simply being self‑absorbed due to this unsuitable concept about God, and it’s robbing you from fulfilling the second biggest commandment. So in case your relationship with God is your precedence, then the individuals round you’re going to be your precedence. However if you happen to suppose that, you understand, since you don’t have all of it collectively, that your relationship with God is continually in shambles, then why would you assist anybody? Why would you have got that impulse? So it’s a extremely harmful factor to view God on this incorrect manner. It’ll rob you from doing the second biggest factor we’re right here to do.
WES: Yeah. Properly, it’s so essential that we embrace this concept that we’re justified by religion in Christ. Sure, baptism is essential. Sure, repentance is essential. Sure, completely. However our loyalty, our allegiance to King Jesus is the premise on which we’re saved, which suggests it’s not on the premise of my works. I’ve not finished sufficient. I’ve not been ok. I’ve sinned. I’ve fallen quick. However my covenant relationship with God relies on what Jesus has finished for me, and after we embrace that, then we will really consider what Peter says, that we’re a royal nation, a royal priesthood. We’re a royal priesthood that ‑‑ to your level, I’m a priest. I’m a holy priest within the Lord. I can serve within the title of the Lord and do these good works within the title of the Lord by the facility of the Holy Spirit, not as a result of I’m good, not as a result of I’ve attained some standing or as a result of I’ve finished every part proper, however due to who he’s, as a result of he’s gracious and merciful.
And it does ‑‑ it modifications the best way that we love individuals day in and time out and what we do and our braveness and our willingness to do these issues, as a result of it’s not about us; it’s about them and it’s concerning the Lord and it’s about our alternative to attach them to the Lord and to be a conduit for the blessings of God, and that each one comes all the way down to having proper theology.
MARCO: Yeah, it’s so extremely essential. You recognize, there’s a manner which you can reply this accurately, however if you happen to had been to ask somebody, like, “Why are you saved?” If the reply is all “I” and “me,” then you definately’re answering the unsuitable manner. Perhaps you may say, “Properly, I’ve obtained, you understand, forgiveness,” you are able to do it that manner. Once more, there’s a strategy to do it, I suppose, however the actuality is it must be 99.9%, if not 100%, “As a result of that is what God did. That is what God did by Christ for me.” And I ‑‑ once more, I’m not, you understand, preaching Calvinism or one thing like that, however I clearly have a duty to, you understand, resolve to be in a relationship with God, nevertheless you wish to put that, you understand, to have the religion ‑‑ grace by religion, completely. However who’s liable for the victory? Who’s liable for the enjoyment? Who’s liable for that? It’s God. It’s completely God, and it’s not even shut. It’s not even shut.
Fortunately, God doesn’t have perfection as a requirement. God goes, “No, I do know you’re not good. That’s why Jesus got here to the Earth. It’s due to that, so I can work with that each earlier than you’re a Christian and if you are a Christian. I’m highly effective sufficient.” I want there have been a verse within the Bible that mentioned, “My grace is enough for you; my energy is made good in your weak spot.” There’s! And what an exquisite concept! God says, “You’re weak, you’re imperfect, you have got all these issues. I can do one thing with that. I can do wonderful issues with that!” I imply, what pleasure! Oh man, I really feel a lot pleasure each time I take into consideration that concept. God can do one thing with me regardless of me! Regardless of me!
WES: Yeah, we don’t understand, I believe, generally that our dangerous theology, our workspace theology, our legalistic theology, it robs God of glory and gratitude and thanksgiving, that it’s like if a dad or mum or an uncle or a grandparent gave somebody an inheritance of 1,000,000 {dollars} or this enormous property, if the one who obtained that inheritance ‑‑ and naturally they needed to signal on the dotted line, they needed to ‑‑ no matter it was that they needed to do to obtain the inheritance, in the event that they mentioned, “Properly, why do you have got this inheritance,” and so they mentioned, “Properly, as a result of I did all the authorized necessities to get my inheritance.” Like, no, that’s not why you have got this inheritance. You’ve this inheritance as a result of you have got a gracious, a benevolent, a beneficiant benefactor who gave this to you. That’s why you have got it, due to their character, due to their nature, in order that they get all of the glory, in order that they get all of the credit score. We will’t even take a minuscule quantity of credit score for receiving a present that was given to us. Sure, after all we needed to obtain it. Sure, after all we needed to put our religion in Jesus, however that’s only a matter of responding in religion to the provide that’s been made to us. And I believe generally we don’t acknowledge that that’s what we’re doing. After we get all wrapped up in, “Properly, I did this and I did this,” and, “Properly, have I finished all of these items,” and, “Properly, I didn’t do that and I haven’t been good in that manner,” we’re robbing God of his glory and the gratitude that’s due him.
MARCO: Yeah, however Wes, I used my best possible pen to signal the factor, and I made positive my writing was tremendous clear, essentially the most lovely cursive I’ve ever utilized in my life. Doesn’t that rely for one thing? That’s what I sound like once I begin to put the blame ‑‑ or not the blame, however the glory begins to return to me, or I begin to put the strain, every part on my shoulders. I’m going, effectively, I suppose I higher convey out my best possible pen, or I suppose I higher be sure my phrases, my letters are tremendous clear and legible. It simply sounds so foolish when you concentrate on it, however, once more, you’ve bought to be eager about what God has finished, what he’s doing, in any other case you’re going to fixate on what you see, and what you see is especially what you’re doing. So I get why individuals come to that time and why they keep there. The clear answer is you’ve bought to be taught, you’ve bought to fixate, you’ve bought to focus extra on who God is and what he has finished, and also you’ll perceive what he does, even at this time.
WES: Yeah. Let’s form of change gears just a bit bit. We’re speaking concerning the mercy of God, the grace of God, the forgiveness and the pardon that God provides, however what about his wrath? What about his judgment? It’s simple that that’s a part of the character and the character of God. It’s exhausting to learn. It’s fascinating you mentioned the Previous Testomony actually helped you modify your thoughts on the character and nature of God as a result of so many individuals particularly learn the Previous Testomony and so they say, “Properly, what about his wrath? What about his anger? What about his judgment?” And, to me, I believe that that is pivotal to excellent news. It’s a part of the excellent news of who God is. However let’s discuss that for a second. What about his wrath and his judgment is pivotal to know the character and the character of God?
MARCO: Properly, you understand, if Marco from, let’s say, eight years in the past would have been listening to our dialog, I’d have been saying, when are they going to speak about wrath? When are they going to speak about punishment? I imply, you higher speak concerning the different facet, in any other case you have to not consider in that, or one thing like that, and that’s very foolish to consider that. However generally I’d suppose prefer it’s a liberal ‑‑ previous Marco would say that the place Marco is at this time is at this liberal excessive that ignores God’s judgment and wrath, however that’s so removed from the reality. God’s judgment and wrath are the very primary and sobering reminder that God all the time has been, and God continues to be severe about sin. We should ‑‑ each single Christian ought to know this, and it’s a sobering factor. God is so severe about sin. You learn passages like Psalm 5:4. God hates sin. God received’t dwell with sin. He doesn’t have the benefit of it. He doesn’t prefer it in any respect. And there are additionally ‑‑ we now have to acknowledge this brazenly, too. There are numerous individuals in scripture, and numerous, to me, which have died due to their sin, that God led to their dying due to their sin.
You recognize, on the channel, I’m doing plenty of apologetic work, and that’s one thing that comes up rather a lot from atheists that I speak to. They go, “What about all these those that God killed as a result of they had been dangerous?” And it’s so fascinating when you concentrate on that. They declare that God is that this ethical monster due to his wrath, however the reason being usually due to their ‑‑ the explanation why they suppose that’s as a result of they’ve this restricted and subjective human morality, and God has to line up with their morality. The infinite thoughts of God has to align with atheist YouTube commenters’ morality. And I’ve seen, due to that, many Christians attempt to downplay the severity of God ‑‑ Romans 11:22, “the goodness and severity of God.” I’ve seen them attempt to downplay the severity of God to make him extra palatable to individuals, and I’ve seen that, and I believe, no, don’t do this. God’s judgment and his wrath, they’re essential components of understanding why he does what he does. You may’t downplay that and go, effectively ‑‑ and folks attempt to do the Previous Testomony/New Testomony factor, and let’s perceive this proper.
The God of heaven and Earth hates sin and he’ll punish sin, and whenever you downplay that a part of God, you’re not directly, if in a roundabout way, main individuals to be extra snug with sin. I ought to have ‑‑ and I aspire to have this in my very own life ‑‑ the identical discomfort that Jesus had in direction of sin, and I do know I’m not there, however I wish to be increasingly uncomfortable with sin. And so what I inform individuals ‑‑ once I downplay God’s wrath and his judgment, I’m doing one thing that’s the reverse of the center of God and the way he feels about sin. So every part I see God do must be seen with the partial thought that ‑‑ at the least partially, if not majorly, that he’s performing out of his hatred for sin. Actually, you could possibly in all probability very simply make the case you may join that to every part that he does; it’s out of his hatred for sin. The place individuals begin to get this unsuitable is the best way they ‑‑ I suppose the easiest way to say it’s, what does hatred for sin appear like? Loads of the time we form of apply that in a technique. However does that form of make sense, what I’m saying right here?
WES: Yeah, yeah, completely, it does. And what’s so fascinating, to form of return to the thought of the skeptic or the atheist who’s indignant at God for being indignant, or indignant at God for his wrath and searching on the God of the Bible and saying, “Properly, that God can’t presumably exist, or if he does, he’s an ethical monster” ‑‑ what’s so fascinating is that the identical skeptics will appear to ask ‑‑ when there’s a college taking pictures or when there’s some horrible factor that occurs, they’ll ask, “Properly, the place was God? Why doesn’t God do one thing concerning the evil on the earth?” And that’s so fascinating, that when God does one thing concerning the evil on the earth and punishes evil individuals, we are saying, “Oh, effectively, that’s a imply God and that’s unsuitable and he shouldn’t be like that,” after which when God doesn’t do one thing concerning the evil on the earth and he permits evil to go, at the least from our viewpoint, unchecked, then we are saying, “Properly, that’s an apathetic God and that’s horrible and I can’t consider God could be that manner.”
And what’s fascinating is that scripture offers with this. It offers with all of this, the place generally the psalmist, particularly, will probably be saying, “God, the place are you? Why don’t you present up? Why don’t you take care of this? Why do you permit evil individuals to proceed doing what they do?” And the excellent news is that God will take care of all the evil on the earth. I take into consideration the issues that Jesus instructed his disciples to do, like flip the opposite cheek and go the additional mile and love your enemies, pray for individuals who persecute you. The one manner we will do this and dwell out the directions of Jesus is that if we actually consider that sometime God will take care of all the evil on the earth, that God will punish the evildoer, that he’ll punish the depraved. In any other case, we must always simply go take vengeance for ourselves. We should always simply go and punish all the depraved individuals in the event that they’re simply gonna get away with it. However as a result of we consider that God does take sin severely and that he’ll set every part proper, then we will flip the opposite cheek. We will pray for our enemies. We will love our enemies if we actually, really consider that God actually takes sin severely and that he’s much more indignant about it than we’re.
MARCO: Yeah. To attach this to what we had been saying earlier, the popularity of my inadequacy is definitely some of the liberating issues in my life, and it’s prompted me to have such an important belief in God who is aware of what he’s doing. And once I understand that God is aware of what he’s doing and I settle for my inadequacy, life, in a sure sense, turns into really easy as a result of all I’ve bought to do is belief God. And, clearly, that takes me to troublesome locations, and there’s one thing to be mentioned about that, however all I’ve to do is belief God, so which may result in motion in sure areas or simply holding again, peace‑be‑nonetheless form of issues, trusting him once I take into consideration perhaps my non‑Christian household and the way all that works ‑‑ all I’ve to do is belief that my God, Isaiah 55:8‑9, that he is aware of what’s greatest. His methods are usually not simply totally different than mine; they’re greater. His ideas and his methods are greater than my ideas and my methods. So it’s such a liberating factor to have a look at God because the one whose understanding is infinite, in Psalm 147. I can belief him, and that ‑‑ truly, figuring out that I’m so insufficient and all I’ve bought to do is belief God, that’s such a liberating factor, however I can see why that’s exhausting for individuals to do who are usually not pondering in non secular however in carnal phrases, as a result of it’s exhausting to let go of your individual sense of morality if you happen to’re not likely offered on God, if that is smart.
WES: Yeah, yeah, for positive. And that’s what it’s to be a Christian or to be a part of the household of God, is to, as you mentioned, belief him, and that’s exhausting. And I believe it’s good for us to acknowledge when that’s exhausting or when it looks as if God is being harsh or when it looks as if God is being apathetic, and scripture provides us permission to say, “Hey, God, that is how I’m feeling. I’m feeling like that is actually harsh. And why can’t I do that factor that I wish to do or why did this factor occur or why aren’t you doing something and why don’t you repair these issues on the earth?” And over and again and again, the scriptures train us to attend for the Lord, watch for the Lord, watch for the Lord. And we now have to be satisfied ‑‑ and I believe that’s why the cross must be on the heart of our theology. The cross teaches us that God, one, takes sin severely, for positive. However quantity two, that God is nice and that he’s gracious and merciful and he loves us. And if we’re satisfied of the goodness of God, we’re satisfied that he actually will set every part proper, then we will watch for the Lord and we could be affected person and we will belief him, even when it doesn’t occur in our lifetime, that God will do all the issues he’s promised to do.
MARCO: Yeah, the assertion “God is severe about sin,” it usually will get translated into, “God can’t wait to punish you,” and that’s not the fitting translation. That’s not who God is. And it’s an overreaction to that mindset that causes individuals to downplay the judgment and the wrath of God, in my expertise, as a result of they’ve this concept that God is severe about sin; meaning he can’t wait to punish you. And that’s not ‑‑ the higher Biblical place and method, in my thoughts, is God is so severe about sin that he despatched his personal Son to save lots of you from it, and after having been saved, he continues to help you in your day by day life regardless of your imperfections. So simply belief him, figuring out that you’re insufficient. He doesn’t wish to punish you ‑‑ 2 Peter 3:9, he’s not keen that any ought to perish however that each one ought to come to repentance. That’s what God needs. And so God being severe about sin doesn’t instantly translate to, he simply can’t wait to punish you. No. Actually, if you happen to take a look at how he acted in his seriousness in direction of sin, you see one thing very, very totally different than such a restricted mindset like that.
WES: Yeah. Properly, there’s a pair tales to form of go together with that theme that you just’re bringing on the market, and even to return to the thought of God killing individuals in scripture, God placing individuals to dying. You recognize, we’ve bought Nadab and Abihu, we’ve bought Uzzah. Nadab and Abihu had been these monks who supplied unusual fireplace and God struck them useless. Uzzah was a part of transporting the Ark on a cart, and the oxen stumbled and the Ark started to fall and he reached out and touched the Ark of the Covenant and he was struck useless. And so we now have these tales, and for me, rising up, preachers, Bible class academics, we learn these tales rather a lot and these tales, for some individuals, they might be some obscure story within the Previous Testomony they’ve by no means even heard of earlier than. They don’t know who Nadab and Abihu are. They don’t know who Uzzah was, and they also’re simply obscure tales, however for me, the place I grew up and the way I grew up, for lots of the church buildings I used to be in, these tales bought emphasised rather a lot in order that they turned kind of central for my theology and I did take into consideration God’s wrath that manner, that I believed, effectively, God is simply ready for me to by accident attain out and contact the Ark. He’s ready for me to by accident provide some unusual fireplace and God goes to punish me. He’s ready for me to step out of line. He’s like a police officer that’s set a pace entice and he’s simply ready for me to go over the pace restrict even one mile an hour in order that he can punish me.
So do you suppose that these tales ‑‑ clearly, they’re tales of issues that God did, however do you suppose they get emphasised within the unsuitable methods or emphasised to the exclusion of different tales or they turn into too central in our theology? How do you suppose we must always take into consideration tales like that?
MARCO: Yeah, if you happen to take a variety of these tales ‑‑ I discussed the God can’t wait to punish you, the overreaction to that that causes individuals to downplay his wrath. There’s one other facet to that, the place there are those that see individuals downplaying God’s wrath, and so then they go to an excessive and so they go, “We have to harp on Leviticus 10 consistently. We have to harp on the story of Uzzah consistently.” And, truthfully, I discovered myself in that camp for some time, the place I believed, as a result of there’s so many individuals downplaying his wrath, I would like to only hammer this consistently. And, once more, it led to ‑‑ it contributed to an already restricted mindset on God as a result of that’s not who God is, to only cut back him to Leviticus 10, to cut back him to the story of Uzzah.
I used to be eager about it in phrases like this. You recognize, I’ve two daughters. Mother and father ‑‑ and though my daughters are each younger, they’re each child toddlers, dad and mom should self-discipline their children indirectly, no matter that manner is. And I bear in mind this thought, as a child, in direction of my dad and mom: All you wish to do is punish me. All you wish to do is punish me. And, sometimes, that assertion would come from a scarcity of perspective, nevertheless it additionally would come from this hyperfixation on myself once I didn’t get what I wished. And so I’d simply straw‑man nearly who my dad and mom had been and say, “All they wish to do is punish me.” And I was so jealous of youngsters in class, rising up, whose dad and mom didn’t punish them ever, whose dad and mom had no guidelines, they bought to do no matter they wished, no limitations. I believed, these are the great dad and mom. I imply, come on. If solely my dad and mom would speak to these dad and mom as soon as, they might know these are the great dad and mom. And now I understand these weren’t the great dad and mom, and I’m not jealous of the children who had these varieties of oldsters.
And whenever you join this again to God, you achieve a manner higher perspective on this manner. In the event you had been to line up all of the cases of God’s severity within the Previous Testomony up in opposition to all of the cases of him dealing out extraordinary quantities of goodness and mercy, it will blow you away as a result of God has truly given us a perspective of the right way to perceive who he’s and what he does all all through scripture. In Exodus 20, the giving of the Ten Commandments, there’s that well-known line the place he says, “I’m a jealous God visiting the iniquities,” however he additionally says, “however displaying mercy to 1000’s, to those that love me and hold my commandments.” So the God who simply mentioned, “I’m a God of wrath, I punish, and I’ll punish for a very long time,” he additionally says, “however I present mercy to 1000’s, to those that love me and hold my commandments.”
So if I can discover, Biblically, only one individual within the Bible who was clearly flawed however God confirmed them mercy, I can show to you which you can be so flawed and nonetheless be one who loves God and retains his commandments in his eyes, and that offers you unbelievable perspective. And that phrase in Exodus 20, it’s in Exodus 34, it’s all all through the Previous Testomony, it’s elsewhere, as effectively ‑‑ it’s a extremely repeated passage in scripture, and it makes it clear to you that the overwhelming majority of the cases of God’s wrath and severity, they’re additionally proof of his mercy, as a result of in so many conditions, the consequence might have and will have been manner worse than what they bought. And so a variety of instances individuals simply boil it all the way down to what the punishment was, and so they go, “Look how extreme God is,” however let’s bear in mind, let’s not get it mistaken right here, God might have and was keen, at one level, to complete Israel and simply begin once more with Moses. And the truth that you may learn that after which go one chapter later and Israel nonetheless exists? That’s God’s mercy on each single a part of the web page. And so, a variety of the time, we form of construct this straw man or we’re manner too reductionist about these acts of wrath. They’re truly unbelievable examples of mercy on the a part of God and goodness on the a part of God.
WES: Yeah. Yeah, I’m so glad that you just introduced up Exodus 34. I’m going to learn this ‑‑ I’m going to learn that entire passage, verses 6 and seven. It says, “The Lord handed earlier than him and proclaimed, ‘The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, sluggish to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, retaining steadfast love for 1000’s, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, however who will on no account clear the responsible, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the kids and the kids’s youngsters, to the third and fourth technology.’”
It’s so fascinating, after we learn that passage, that each of these features, the judgment of God and the mercy of God ‑‑ each are clearly represented, however to say that they’re balanced would, I believe, be the unsuitable strategy to put it as a result of they’re not likely balanced as in the event that they’re a one‑to‑one equation. Like God has wrath and judgment, and he additionally has mercy and style, and also you’ve bought to have each. And it’s true, you do should have each, however not in equal measure, that he’s way more gracious and merciful than he’s punishing, that it’s a thousand to a few or 4. He’s forgiving to 1000’s and he’s wrathful, or he’s judging and punishing three or 4 generations, and it’s not a one‑to‑one equation.
And I believe you’re precisely proper. I’m so glad that you just mentioned that, so usually, the kind of emphasizing of Nadab and Abihu or the emphasizing of Uzzah and God’s wrath is an overreaction to the perceived liberalism or the perceived overemphasis of mercy and style. And I hear preachers say issues like that, “Properly, that church over there, they only discuss love on a regular basis,” or “They only discuss mercy on a regular basis.” And, yeah, that very effectively could be the case, and we actually don’t wish to de‑emphasize the horrible nature of sin. We don’t wish to ignore sin and use grace as a license for sin. Completely, that may and does occur, however we’ve bought to be so cautious that we’re not attempting to place the judgment of God as a one‑to‑one comparability of his mercy and his grace, that he’s way more ‑‑ I’m so glad that you just put it that manner, that if you happen to put all the passages within the Previous Testomony of God being gracious and merciful, they might far outweigh these instances the place he does have wrath and he does decide and he does punish, and people are each features that we have to discuss and emphasize, however not in the identical form of manner.
MARCO: Yeah. Really, I’ve a superb instance for the concept it’s not one‑to‑one. In the event you learn by Judges ‑‑ you understand, I discussed if you will discover one flawed one that God confirmed mercy to, then I can show which you can be flawed and nonetheless love God and be a keeper of his commandments in his eyes. In Judges, they’re on this vicious cycle of sin, penalties, crying out, God provides a decide, delivers them, time of peace, after which rinse and repeat, principally. And in Judges chapter 3, that entire cycle is occurring, after which God provides deliverance in Othniel, after which he blesses them with relaxation for 40 years. After that point, they return into sin, after which they’re underneath Moabite oppression, underneath Eglon, after which they cry out for God’s assist. He sends Ehud. And after they expertise deliverance underneath Ehud, how lengthy do you suppose now God provides them deliverance for? Wouldn’t it be much less time? Does God say they want some probationary interval? “Show to me, give me a pair years of faithfulness, then I’ll do” ‑‑ God doubles the quantity of relaxation from 40 to 80 years. So why would God do this? Had been they only so exceptionally good this time, so good at being delivered this time or one thing like that? No. God is simply that good and he needs to bless that a lot. Why double it? Perhaps God is simply so good that he’s keen to double his blessings that can assist you see the enjoyment of dwelling for him, and hopefully, that may hold you from leaving him and experiencing sin, struggling, and wrath sooner or later. It’s nowhere close to one‑to‑one. God actually doubles his blessings on individuals who deserve manner, manner lower than any of that.
WES: Wow, that’s incredible. Let me ask you this as we’re closing. It’s so humorous that we’re having this dialog as a result of I used to be simply requested by anyone right here lately who mentioned if Jesus and God had been collectively from the start, which means God, the Father ‑‑ if Jesus and the Father had been collectively from the start, why is the God of the Previous Testomony so totally different from the God of the New Testomony? Clearly, that’s a query that individuals have been wrestling with and pondering by for a pair thousand years now. So how would you reply to that ‑‑ or how do you reply to that whenever you get questions like that, kind of pitting the, quote‑unquote, “God of the Previous Testomony” in opposition to the, quote‑unquote, “God of the New Testomony”?
MARCO: Yeah, good cop/dangerous cop, one thing like that. You recognize, I’ve a solution for the query, however I additionally reject the premise of the query. It simply relies upon what they imply by this generally. Generally individuals are saying, “Why does God deal with issues in a different way?” And I believe that’s a distinct query than “Why is God so totally different?” You recognize, there’s one thing to be mentioned about God treating them in a different way in software however not by way of his character. And God’s promise was to convey the Messiah by Abraham’s seed, and Jesus isn’t coming into the world by the seed of Abraham in the event that they get picked off within the wilderness by enemy nations, if they’ve massive quantities of individuals dying from consuming sure meals or animals which can be extra harmful than others, in the event that they’re enjoying quick and free with their sexual relationships, they’re intermingling with different nations, in the event that they’re getting one another fatally ailing as a result of they’re touching rotting corpses after which their fingers are soiled and so they deal with different conditions like that. However, additionally, if revolt after revolt, civil wars, basically, in Israel are simply allowed to occur each time individuals really feel prefer it, Messiah isn’t coming by Abraham’s seed. They’re not going to final very lengthy. If the individuals are not going to be held accountable for the disrespect of God’s holiness, they’re not going to make it, both. To harken again to Nadab and Abihu, for instance, that’s what God says: “By those that come close to me, I should be thought to be holy. In the event you’re going to make it, you must regard me as holy. Earlier than all of the individuals, I should be glorified.” So God was actually extra extreme bodily, you may say, within the Previous Testomony, partially, for these causes. They wanted to be alive. You may discuss that stuff.
However right here’s the place I reject the premise. Was God any kind of loving then? No. Was God kind of merciful again then? Was he kind of severe about sin? Was he extra severe or much less severe? Completely not. So generally we take one type of software and make the corresponding precept, like, unique to that form of software, that type of self-discipline, you could possibly say, when a precept could be utilized some ways or a attribute of God’s nature could be utilized some ways. So, with God, we have to take the entire of what he did to extra precisely perceive his nature and the underlying causes for the form of software ‑‑ or the form of therapy that he dealt out, since you’ve bought to recollect, once more, God might have wiped them out, however he didn’t. So the applying ‑‑ you may’t simply take a look at, you understand, cases of wrath and say that’s much less love. No, no, no. All these items come collectively and also you’ve bought to get to know God to know that half, his nature and the underlying causes for the applying of all of that. Does that form of make sense?
WES: Yeah, I believe that’s an ideal reply. I believe that’s a good way to place it, that God hasn’t modified, however that he’s coping with it in a brand new manner, however his character ‑‑ and that’s, I believe, the argument that the apostles made again and again, that the cross and what God has finished is completely in line with the scriptures. And when the apostles speak concerning the scriptures, they’re speaking concerning the Previous Testomony scriptures. They didn’t see any contradiction. They noticed, oh, after all, that is precisely the kind of factor that our God would do. In fact our God is gracious. In fact our God is merciful. And never solely does he wish to rescue Israel, as a result of he’s been rescuing Israel for 1000’s of years, however shock, shock, he additionally needs to rescue the Gentiles. He needs to rescue the world. And we see that as we glance by the, quote‑unquote, “Previous Testomony scriptures,” as effectively. We see, again and again, God’s concern is for all humanity and that the seed of Abraham was going to
bless all the nations, not simply Israel. And, yeah, I so respect you serving to us to see the grace and the mercy of God in each the Previous and New Testaments.
MARCO: Yeah, I like that you just mentioned that, that the prophets and the apostles, they understood this about God. It’s us that attempt to stereotype God within the Previous Testomony and boil him all the way down to one thing that ‑‑ he’s far more than that. He’s far more than the cases of judgment and wrath, for instance. We’ve such a superb God.
I take into consideration Psalm 23, and one of many largest explanation why it’s such a beloved and well-known psalm is that stunning, like, end result in verse quantity 6, that “Certainly goodness and mercy shall comply with me all the times of my life and I’ll dwell in the home of the Lord perpetually.” Individuals love the sensation they get when they consider how good God is, and my Shepherd leads me in goodness and mercy. So we now have to ‑‑ as such an important a part of God’s nature, we now have to have a look at every part that he does by that lens. That’s who he’s. God is love, and we’ve bought to have a look at him in that manner, the goodness and the mercy that I get. As somebody that ‑‑ I establish with Israel a lot, and God blesses me and he exhibits his goodness to me like he did to them, and what a superb God. What a superb God.
WES: Yeah. Amen. I believe that’s an important place to cease. Marco, thanks for this dialog, however extra importantly, thanks for the work you’re doing within the kingdom, Brother.
MARCO: Likewise, man, I respect you very a lot.
