Each Christian ought to see themselves as a minister and their work as a ministry.
In right now’s fast-paced world, it’s simple to compartmentalize our lives into separate spheres – work, church, household, and so forth. Nevertheless, this mindset can result in a disconnect between our religion and our day by day lives, particularly within the office. Many Christians wrestle with the query of how one can stay out their religion in a so-called “secular” atmosphere. They surprise if their work has any religious significance or if it’s merely a way to an finish. This episode of the Radically Christian Bible Examine Podcast addresses these considerations and gives a recent perspective on the function of labor within the lifetime of a believer.
Drawing from biblical examples comparable to Daniel and the teachings of the apostle Paul, this episode explores the idea of each Christian being a minister, no matter their occupation or office setting. It delves into the concept our work is not only a secular pursuit, however a possibility for ministry and discipleship. The dialogue emphasizes the significance of viewing our work as an extension of our stroll with God, the place we are able to glorify Him, exhibit our belief in Him, and stay out the mission of constructing disciples.
The visitor for this episode is Rusty Tugman, a seasoned minister and management coach. After 30 years in full-time ministry, 21 because the preacher of the Alameda Church of Christ in Norman, OK, Rusty grew to become the Management Coach & Office Coach for the Oklahoma Division of Human Providers. He’s additionally a coach for Strata Management, a True Dads Educator, and the proprietor of Tugman Teaching & Consulting, LLC. Together with his distinctive perspective and expertise, Rusty shares worthwhile insights on how one can strategy work as a Christian and how one can be an efficient witness in a secular atmosphere. His journey serves as an inspiration for these looking for to combine their religion and work in a significant method.
Welcome to the Radically Christian Bible Examine podcast. I’m your host, Wes McAdams. Right here, we’ve got one purpose: Study to like like Jesus.
Who’s a minister? Is it simply the people who find themselves financially supported by the church or is it each follower of Jesus? Immediately’s Bible research will reveal why each Christian ought to consider themselves as a minister and their office as a spot of ministry. My visitor right now is my good friend, Rusty Tugman. Right here’s what Rusty has to say about his life and his work. He mentioned, “After 30 years in full‑time ministry, 21 because the preacher for the Alameda Church of Christ in Norman, Oklahoma, I grew to become the management coach and office coach for the Oklahoma Division of Human Providers. I’m additionally a coach for Strata Management, a TRUE Dads educator, and the proprietor of Tugman Teaching & Consulting, LLC, and I nonetheless preach, however now as a visitor preacher.” He says, “I’ve by no means left full‑time ministry, I simply modified context.”
However earlier than we get into my dialog with Rusty, I need to learn from 1st Peter chapter 2, beginning in verse 9. Peter says, “However you’re a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a folks for his personal possession, that you could be proclaim the excellencies of him who referred to as you out of darkness into his marvelous mild. As soon as you weren’t a folks, however now you’re God’s folks; when you had not obtained mercy, however now you may have obtained mercy. Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage conflict in opposition to your soul. Hold your conduct among the many Gentiles honorable, in order that after they communicate in opposition to you as evildoers, they could see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation.”
I hope that you simply get pleasure from right now’s dialog, and I pray that it helps all of us be taught to like like Jesus.
WES: Rusty Tugman, welcome to the podcast, Brother.
RUSTY: Thanks, Wes, I’m honored to be on. Thanks for inviting me.
WES: Man, it’s good to have you ever. I’m actually enthusiastic about having this dialog. You and I get to hang around at Camp Blue Haven each summer season, and I’ve grown a lot out of your knowledge and from our friendship, and so I’m excited for different folks to listen to your ideas right now.
RUSTY: Properly, I recognize you saying that. Yeah, I’ve had a lot enjoyable hanging out with you at Blue Haven and it’s been good to only get to know you and develop our friendship.
WES: Likewise. So I need to discuss ministry, and I feel once we hear that phrase “ministry,” we routinely take into consideration folks which can be working for a church full‑time or half‑time, and we take into consideration ministry in these phrases. In truth, one time I bear in mind I used to be preaching and I used to be speaking about how your preacher could also be a minister, however he’s not the minister, however we have a tendency to connect that time period, “the minister,” to a preacher or someone that’s in that kind of, quote‑unquote, “full‑time ministry,” however I feel there’s a greater method to consider that, and that’s what I need to discuss right now, however possibly the easiest way to do this is you inform us about your story in ministry.
RUSTY: Yeah, completely. Properly, and also you’re precisely proper. I imply, that’s how I’ve considered it; that’s how a whole lot of us consider it, and so ‑‑ yeah. So lately, I’ve sort of had a transition in my life that’s made me rethink all of that. And so, you already know, the pandemic modified a whole lot of issues in our world, and it made us rethink a whole lot of issues, together with church, what it means to be the church, how we go about doing church, so to talk. And so I bear in mind, through the pandemic, you already know, I’m sitting there in my good church workplace and I’m ready for the world to return to me, and I’m considering, they’re not coming to me anymore, however it additionally made me understand simply, as a preacher, how I’ve allowed myself to only sort of be swallowed up in that church bubble the place most of my interactions, you already know, had been with church members and Christians and all of these sorts of issues, and so that actually simply began to sort of gnaw at me. And so I began praying and actually discerning about simply this concept that, man, I have to get on the market. I have to go to the place the world is and really stay out the Nice Fee, maybe in ways in which I haven’t earlier than. And so I began praying lots about that, and, actually, that strategy of prayer and discernment was a few yr‑lengthy course of.
In order I’m going by means of that course of, a possibility got here alongside to affix the Studying and Worker Growth workforce on the Oklahoma Division of Human Providers. And so I’ve a background in management and, by means of the years, I’ve executed a whole lot of management coaching with totally different teams and nonprofits and issues like that, and it simply appeared like a very nice match and a terrific reply to this prayer that I’ve been praying, and so after about 30 years of full‑time church work, I transitioned right into a secular function, secular atmosphere, however for the aim of ministry. And so what I inform folks is that, you already know, I didn’t go away full‑time ministry; I simply modified context, and in order that’s sort of how I view it, and it’s been fantastic. I imply, I’m in a position to have conversations with people who I might by no means have crossed paths with. I’m in a position to have an viewers with people who I might by no means have had an viewers with earlier than, and the ministry alternatives simply have been superb.
And so what I do there may be I do management coaching and training for his or her supervisors, managers, and executives, and it’s a company of about 6,200 workers, so lots of people, and, in actual fact, I’m proper now engaged on simply growing an inside teaching program there. And so a whole lot of nice alternatives, however it positively simply has shaken up my world, however it’s simply actually induced me to rethink our strategy to work, to ministry. Such as you mentioned, who’s a minister? What does that appear to be in the actual world?
WES: Yeah. Properly, I take into consideration what Paul says in Ephesians 4. He’s speaking about Jesus giving items to the church and, particularly, the items that he provides are apostles and evangelists, however he says, about shepherds and academics, that their job is to equip the saints for the work of ministry, that each saint, each Christian ought to be a minister and that it’s the job of the church staff to equip the members, to equip the saints, the Christians, the disciples for that work of ministry. And, I imply, I feel it could change the way in which that we take into consideration so many issues. I feel it could change the idea we’ve got of the church, like what’s the church? We frequently pay lip service to the concept we’re the church, the persons are the church, however we’ve got this very institutionalized mind-set in regards to the church.
I bear in mind one time I used to be on social media and somebody was, you already know, asking for assist, needing assist with one thing. I don’t know if it was monetary or needing someone to do one thing for them, and one of many members of our congregation commented and mentioned, “It’s best to ask the church and see in the event that they can assist.” And I believed, what a bizarre solution to say that, as a result of you’re the church. What she meant was ask the folks in management to see if the church collectively can assist you, however she was eradicating herself from that equation, and that’s so usually what we do. We take into consideration the folks which can be financially supported, or the folks which can be in management roles, these are the ministers, these are the folks which can be operating the ‑‑ you already know, I don’t understand how we even conceptualize it, however we take ourselves ‑‑ the members take themselves out of the equation they usually consider the church as this enterprise or this group that they financially assist, however it’s the enterprise or group that’s doing these items.
RUSTY: Yeah, that’s proper. And that mind-set, it additionally causes us to separate out our lives into church and work and that these are utterly various things, and there’s a whole lot of hazard in that, I feel. And I feel we miss a whole lot of alternatives that God is placing in our path to be the palms and ft of Jesus, to inform others about Jesus, to assist disciple others and to make disciples due to that mind-set.
WES: I don’t need to go down a rabbit path with the cash facet of issues, however I feel it even goes into the way in which that we take into consideration church funds. Like we frequently say that is God’s cash, and I’m like, you already know what? The cash in your pocket can be God’s cash. The cash in your checking account can be God’s cash. And sure, that is cash that we put within the assortment plate or that we give to the collective church. We’re sharing these funds and we’re doing one thing collectively with these, and so there’s a place, I feel, for folks in, quote‑unquote, “church work.” I like the way in which you mentioned that. There’s a place for that, that every one the members collectively share their funds to assist this individual’s work and their ministry, however we are able to’t ‑‑ the individual within the pew can’t take away themselves from that course of and begin to suppose that, “Properly, I gave my cash, so now it’s his job. It’s their job to do these items.” They need to see that it is a cooperative work that we’re doing, not simply in financially supporting one thing, however, such as you mentioned, each single day once we go to work, we’re on mission for God. We’re a part of ‑‑ we’re the church. You’re the church, whether or not it’s Sunday or Monday or Tuesday or Wednesday, and whether or not you’re within the constructing otherwise you’re out locally.
RUSTY: Yeah, that’s completely proper. And so after I was making this transition ‑‑ and by the way in which, I’m so grateful that I’ve been in a position to be a full‑time minister and have a long time of service in that method. And I nonetheless preach. You realize, I visitor preach and interim preaching and issues like that, so I nonetheless get to scratch that itch a little bit bit, however I’m so grateful that I had that. However this has been so rejuvenating for me and has actually helped me to see issues in lots larger method. And so, for instance, I take into consideration ‑‑ as a result of I had to consider ‑‑ simply rethink work, okay, as a result of I’m leaving all I’ve recognized. I imply, all I’ve ever labored at, up till this level, has been in church. I imply, even from a younger age, I used to be doing internships and all of that, so almost my complete working life has been in a church setting. And so now, transitioning out of that, I actually needed to rethink, okay, what is figure? What’s it about? How does this match into what God has referred to as me to do?
And so, in my research of that, I went to a few locations, and that is simply sort of attending to that divide that you simply’ve spoken of that we sort of typically take into consideration, that sort of ‑‑ you already know, church, nicely, that’s ministry; work over right here is just not. However that’s not supported by scripture. So I take into consideration like Romans 12:1, you already know, the place Paul tells us to current our complete selves as residing sacrifices, that that is actually what worship is about. And in that context, you already know, what he’s saying is that our correct response to our Creator is the shaping of our whole lives by God’s gracious will, and so there’s no separation there. There’s no compartmentalization, that each space of our life is to be fashioned by and formed by the grace of God. However then I feel a clearer image of that and the way work matches into life is within the creation narrative. And, you already know, I feel lots of people, we take a look at work and we predict that it’s simply sort of this obligatory evil, you already know? We sort of have this love/hate relationship with work. And I bear in mind, as a child rising up in rural Oklahoma, my dad making me get out and work on our land, and, particularly through the sizzling summers, I may have sworn, at the moment in my life, that work was from the satan. And that’s a whole lot of instances how we see work, is that, nicely, it should be a product of the autumn and the curse in that work was borne out of the brokenness of sin. However if you return and take a look at the creation narrative, work is definitely borne out of God’s blessing, not sin’s brokenness, as a result of in Genesis 1 and a couple of, work is given earlier than the autumn, and so ‑‑ however, additionally, work, in that narrative, it’s given for human flourishing, that it is a good factor, and it’s good for us.
And so after I take a look at work by means of the creation narrative, by means of Romans 12:1 ‑‑ in fact there’s different passages that we may cite and take a look at, however after I take a look at work by means of that lens, I need to embrace work as a present from God that’s good for me ‑‑ it’s good for me to work; work is nice for me ‑‑ however, additionally, I need to strategy work as simply an extension of my stroll with God, and after I do this, now, work turns into one thing totally different. It really turns into extra thrilling as a result of if I put work in that perspective and take a look at it by means of that lens, nicely, now, work is a pathway for me to glorify and honor God. It’s an enviornment the place I exhibit my belief in God and my allegiance to God, however, additionally, it’s a mission subject the place I can stay out the disciple‑making mission that we’ve been given. Properly, now, work is not only this mundane factor that I’ve to do to pay the payments. It’s thrilling, and there’s so many alternatives that include work to be on mission for God.
And a terrific instance of that is, a number of years in the past, I obtained to be a part of a small group of preachers who had a gathering with Shodankeh Johnson, who does a whole lot of work with the Renew Community, and he’s a disciple‑maker in Sierra Leone, leads a disciple‑making motion, however he’s been to America many, many instances. And he was speaking to us about simply our proclivity, as Individuals, to all the time introduce ourselves by what we do for a residing, you already know? Or we’ll even ask, you already know, “What do you do for a residing?” After which we reply by actually saying what we do for a residing. He mentioned should you had been to return to Sierra Leone, should you had been to ask the members of our congregation that query, “What do you do for a residing,” he mentioned almost all of them would reply in the identical method and they might reply by first saying, “I’m a disciple‑maker who…” So “I’m a disciple‑maker who drives a taxi.” “I’m a disciple‑maker who’s a physician.” “I’m a disciple‑maker who works in a manufacturing unit.” “I’m a disciple‑maker who’s a baker.” And, man, I simply bear in mind all of us preachers who had been there, we had been simply blown away, and I believed, that’s it. That’s what I need to do. That’s how I need to strategy work, as a result of I feel that’s how scripture approaches work.
WES: I bear in mind listening to a lesson one time ‑‑ I used to be in all probability in highschool ‑‑ similar to the image you simply painted, and the preacher mentioned one thing that shocked me, and he meant for it to be provocative. He mentioned, “You possibly can’t be a Christian and a physician. You possibly can’t be a Christian and a policeman. You possibly can’t be a Christian and a rubbish man.” And we’re like, why is he saying that? After which he mentioned, “It’s a must to be a Christian physician, a Christian policeman, a Christian rubbish collector, that your Christianity, your discipleship needs to be a part of that.” However I really like that concept, what you simply mentioned, taking that even additional, that it isn’t simply that I’m being a disciple of Jesus whereas I’m on this profession or whereas I’m within the office, however that I’m really being a disciple‑maker and that I’m really attempting to make disciples whereas I’m doing the job that I’m doing.
So I really like your ideas round Daniel and the way Daniel provides us a sample and an image for being on mission for God whereas we’re within the office. Speak to us about that a little bit bit.
RUSTY: Yeah. I really like the story of Daniel, and Daniel has been clearly an inspiration, you already know, for hundreds and hundreds of years to Christ followers. And in order I used to be making this transition from full‑time church ministry to now going to work in a totally totally different atmosphere, totally different function, all of that, I actually needed to enter that in a purposeful method, and so I turned to Daniel simply to sort of be taught some classes, as a result of Daniel, he’s in a international land. Properly, I used to be going into an atmosphere that was very international to me. However Daniel did that in such a God‑honoring method, and that’s precisely what I needed to do, and so I turned to Daniel for some classes, and, man, I discovered a lot. And one of many first issues that stood out to me after I simply went again to his story and began studying it and finding out it’s that God will put us in secular environments and that’s okay as a result of there’s a objective for us being there. And typically I feel, you already know, we lament the place we’re at, and once we do, we miss the aim that God could have for us to be there. I’m certain Daniel didn’t need to be the place he was. You realize, not one of the Israelites did, however God positioned them there, however he additionally had a particular objective for them, had a particular calling for them in that context, and a mission to satisfy. And Daniel is only a nice instance of simply embracing that calling, embracing that mission, and embracing even the place he was. And so his location didn’t change his allegiance to God, and although he’s in a international kingdom and finally serving a international king, his allegiance is all the time to God. Properly, how did he do this? And that’s what I needed to determine.
And so after I checked out Daniel, a number of issues stood out to me, and I feel one is that Daniel, he was commendable. You realize, on the very starting of his story, he and some others, they’re chosen and, you already know, some variations really use the phrase “recommended” or “commendable” due to his skills, but in addition due to his excellent character. And so I feel, you already know, as Christians within the office, I need to be commendable, not within the sense of, you already know, I need reward to be heaped on me. However being commendable in our skills, but in addition in our character, it makes us stand out, however we’re standing out to convey glory to God. And so what that helped me to do is it helped me to appreciate that the best factor that I can convey into this office that I’m entering into is just not my levels, however it’s my character. And I feel that’s true for all of us, that a whole lot of us ‑‑ I imply, man, we convey so many ‑‑ you already know, schooling, expertise, and all of that, however don’t underestimate the ability and the contribution of your character as a Christian within the office. And in order that’s what Daniel introduced, and so he was commendable.
I additionally suppose, too, simply in Daniel’s story, is that he was competent. He was good at what he did. And also you consider Daniel’s perspective, it appears to me that Daniel sort of had this mentality that he needed to do glorious work with a purpose to reward a superb God. And I feel, wow, that’s a terrific perspective for us to have, is we should need to be good at our jobs, be competent. And so one of many ways in which I can stay out my religion in a secular work atmosphere is to be a superb worker, you already know, to be accountable, to be reliable, to be reliable. You realize, I need to be that worker that my boss doesn’t have to fret about as a result of, you already know, she or he can belief me, and I need to do good work as an extension of my service to a superb God. When you’re a boss, be a superb boss and deal with your workers nicely. Care about your workers, have compassion on them, have empathy for them. So be competent; be good at what you do. And I feel typically we predict that, nicely, you already know, for us to say we’re good at this or that or no matter, that that feels a little bit egocentric, and so we’re not boasting, however we’re saying, hey, I need to be good as a result of that is an extension of my stroll with God. You realize, identical to what Paul says in Colossians 3:17, you already know, do every thing within the title of Christ. So if I’m to take that actually, then I need to be good at my job. I need to do good work and make good contributions.
You realize, I additionally see within the story of Daniel that, you already know, he was convicted. I imply, we see that every one all through his story. And in a secular atmosphere, you’re going to be tempted to compromise your values, your beliefs, your requirements. Daniel was positioned in so many various conditions the place he may have been tempted to compromise, however, additionally, if you take a look at Daniel’s story, Daniel had enemies, and so Daniel had individuals who had been actively working in opposition to him due to his religion. Properly, we could encounter that, as nicely, in a secular work atmosphere. There could also be individuals who actively work in opposition to us and attempt to sabotage us or undermine us due to our religion and our allegiance to Christ, however by means of all of that, Daniel stayed true to his convictions.
After which I additionally simply take into consideration, to me, Daniel teaches me to be Christ. And I do know Daniel’s story comes earlier than the incarnation of Christ, however I take into consideration like in Matthew 25, you already know, when Jesus is saying ‑‑ you already know, speaking about how if you give meals, you give shelter, you go to me, that we’re doing it for him, and so, I feel, be Christ by serving others. And Daniel, he served; he did it within the title of God for the glory of God. And what’s attention-grabbing is that a number of instances in Daniel’s story Nebuchadnezzar confesses that Daniel’s God is the true God of gods and Lord of lords, and it’s as a result of Daniel, by means of his character, by means of his competency, by means of the power of his convictions, he made God recognized to Nebuchadnezzar and others, they usually noticed God due to Daniel. Properly, that’s precisely why God has the Israelites in Babylon, is in order that they will present God, and that’s what Daniel does. And so I simply thought his story and the way in which he approaches work as a real mission, man, that was so inspiring to me, and it actually helped me to craft the way in which that I need to strategy work in a secular atmosphere.
WES: Man, I really like that, and I can see that sample that you simply laid out. I see that sample not solely in Daniel’s life, however even in what Paul taught the primary‑century church, the way in which that he taught them to stay when he was speaking to slave masters or to slaves and telling them how one can stay out their religion inside the context of these relationships, or husbands and wives and youngsters, and in all of these contexts, that is the way in which you reside out your religion. And a lot of it was as a result of he knew, not just for their very own sake, however for the sake of their affect, that they had been going to be influencing different folks, that folks had been going to attract conclusions about what kind of persons are these Jesus followers, what kind of persons are these primarily based on the way in which that they stay their lives.
And I used to be excited about the truth that the world was turned the other way up, not primarily by church staff, people who had been supported by native congregations to evangelise messages on Sunday; the world was turned the other way up by extraordinary, on a regular basis disciples, followers of Jesus residing out their religion, being Christian bakers and Christian blacksmiths and Christian no matter ‑‑ Christian wives and Christian youngsters and Christian fathers and residing out their religion in all of those contexts, and it modified the world. It turned the world the other way up by folks residing this out in on a regular basis life.
RUSTY: That’s proper, and folks discover that. And so I’ll simply offer you a few examples. One among my favourite tales to this point is that ‑‑ so there was an individual that I’m working with on this secular job, on this secular atmosphere, and he knew my background as a preacher, and so he felt compelled to inform me that he was an atheist, and it’s like, okay, you already know. However in any case, we labored collectively, and labored collectively rather well, and, you already know, hit it off and had a superb connection and all of that. So at one level he involves me and he desires to find out about forgiveness, and so he requested me about forgiveness. Properly, you already know, what I do know of forgiveness is how scripture teaches forgiveness, so I start to sort of train a lesson, so to talk, you already know, the Christian customary of forgiveness and the way Christianity defines forgiveness, issues like that. So we’re speaking about forgiveness. So anyway, I’m simply considering, okay, he was simply on this subject and we had a terrific dialog and all that. A few months go by. He reaches out to me and he says, “Hey, do you may have time for a fast name?” And we use Microsoft Groups, so a video name, and “Do you may have time for a fast Groups name?” I’m like, “Positive.” So anyway, I get on this name and he says, “Hey, I simply needed to share one thing with you,” and mentioned, “It’s fairly thrilling to me. I couldn’t wait to share it with you.” I mentioned, “Okay, yeah, what’s occurring?” And he mentioned, “Properly, I simply needed you to know that I used to be in a position to forgive my mom.” And he had had some points and issues, you already know, by means of childhood and all, and I mentioned, “Wow, that’s big. Inform me about it.” And so he’s simply telling me in regards to the expertise, and you may simply see that this big weight had been lifted off of him. And he mentioned, “You realize, I by no means would have been ready to do this if it hadn’t been for our dialog about forgiveness.” And, I imply, I’m simply, you already know ‑‑ sorry, I’m getting teared up excited about it as a result of I’m sitting there considering, nicely, we’re simply having ‑‑ he’s simply within the subject of forgiveness, and I had no clue that every one this different stuff is occurring in his background and in his life.
And so when he calls and says that, it was simply a kind of moments the place you simply go, okay, that is what I ‑‑ I’m the place I must be, and that’s to not pat myself on the again, however it’s simply to say precisely what you mentioned. The affect that we are able to have as Christ followers for the aim of Christ is unbelievable if we are going to take the mission of Christ significantly, and as a substitute of compartmentalizing our lives between church and work, however see that it’s all collectively, we’ve got alternatives like this on a regular basis. I’ve folks at a state authorities company ‑‑ possibly I shouldn’t be saying this on a podcast, I don’t know ‑‑ who name me and simply ask me to wish for them. Properly, I’m not promoting that or I don’t have some signal that claims, hey, should you want prayer, name. It’s simply they’re seeing Christ they usually’re responding to that. And, once more, that’s not highlighting myself, however it’s to say that God will put us in secular environments for this precise objective, to indicate Christ. And once we carry up Christ, he does precisely what he promised he would do. He attracts folks to himself if we, his followers, will carry him up.
WES: Yeah, yeah, completely. I used to be considering ‑‑ I don’t know that we outlined the phrase “minister” earlier, however, I imply, it simply means to serve. To minister to folks is to serve folks, and if we see ‑‑ if each single one in every of us ‑‑ I’m in full‑time church work and my work is a ministry, however so is your work a ministry, and so is the work of our sister who works on the entrance desk on the church constructing. Her work is a ministry, and so is the one who works on the authorities company and the one who works on the faculty. Their work is a ministry they usually’re serving folks, not simply to serve them ‑‑ anyone can serve ‑‑ however as you mentioned, serving within the title of Jesus, and that service within the title of Jesus, it attracts folks to Jesus. I feel, so usually, once we take into consideration our work, particularly, quote‑unquote, “secular work,” and we divide it, we simply are attempting to get by means of it and we’re simply attempting to maintain our head above water and simply get by means of it and transfer on to issues which can be extra vital, whereas if we actually adopted this mind-set that you simply’re selling, that I feel scripture promotes, is seeing our work as a ministry to succeed in and affect different folks. So what recommendation would you may have for those who actually need to attain their neighbors, they need to attain their co‑staff, however they’re not likely certain how one can go about that within the office?
RUSTY: Yeah. Properly, and earlier than I reply that, I simply need to return to one thing you talked about, that ‑‑ you already know, earlier you had been speaking about how typically we consider the minister as ‑‑ we sort of go away all of it to at least one individual, you already know, and all that. However what you simply described, if we’re really doing that, take into consideration the attain that we’d have because the church, that if we’re not simply placing this on the shoulders of 1 individual or one specialised group of paid ministers, however as a substitute, each Christ follower is seeing that they’ve a mission to stay out of their totally different contexts, now consider all of the people who we’re in a position to attain for the reason for Christ, as a result of, you already know, I imply, you’ll attain people who I’ll by no means have the chance to satisfy or speak to, you already know? I’ll attain folks that you simply’ll by no means have the chance to satisfy and speak to. But when we’re each doing that, now, unexpectedly, the dominion is increasing, you already know, and so I simply take into consideration simply the probabilities of what you described, and, to me, that’s so thrilling. And I feel it’s thrilling to be a part of the reason for Christ and to see that I could be a part of it in my work, that I don’t have to depart what I’ve recognized and go ‑‑ I could be a part of the reason for Christ proper the place I’m at, and that’s actually thrilling to me.
However to get to your query about simply, you already know, how will we attain folks in our work environments ‑‑ so I take into consideration, once more, the story of Daniel. You realize, that’s half of a bigger story so that you consider one in every of Daniel’s contemporaries, Jeremiah. Take into consideration what God says to the Israelites in Jeremiah 29, the place he says, you already know, “I’ve a plan for you.” He’s put them on this secular atmosphere, however he has a objective for them, and so he tells them to work, to marry, to have youngsters, to stay their lives, however he additionally tells them to hunt the welfare of the town the place they’ve gone as a result of they’ll profit from that, too, after which he additionally tells them to wish for the welfare of the town the place they’ve been positioned. And so, if I take that and put it in my context, nicely, then it tells me a few issues. It teaches me just a few issues about how I can attain folks in my atmosphere or be on mission in my secular office.
And so one is, I feel, simply settle for the task. You realize, I imply, in Jeremiah 29, God’s given the Israelites an task. Okay, you’re on this international place. You’re on this secular kingdom, however God has given them an task to stay out whereas they’re there. In order that’s the very first thing, is I’ve obtained to just accept the task that God has given me as a Christ follower. That task is true for us irrespective of the place we’re, it doesn’t matter what we do for a residing, and it actually sort of goes to our id, that being that disciple‑maker ‑‑ you already know, that’s what I really like about that story with Shodankeh Johnson, you already know, “I’m a disciple‑maker who…” as a result of what they’re doing is that they’re figuring out themselves first as a disciple‑maker, then, secondarily, I do that to make a residing. Okay. So I settle for the task, and so I’m going to be on mission for Christ.
So, once more, simply going from Jeremiah 29, nicely, if I put that in my context, then I need to be a part of the workforce, and that’s what God tells the Israelites. Be a part of the group. Don’t separate your self off, make your self this personal little clique. He’s saying be a part of the group, be a part of the town. So I need to be a part of the workforce; I need to be with the workforce, you already know, I need to be alongside the workforce. And so be a part of the workforce that you simply work with at work, but in addition be a blessing to the workforce. That’s what God was telling the Israelites to do. Be a supply of blessing to the folks that you simply’re round and within the metropolis you reside in. And so, you already know, in work, okay, how can I be a blessing to the folks I work with and to the workforce I’m on? And I take into consideration that by way of how do I add worth? What worth can I add to this workforce?
After which additionally pray to your workforce. So simply as God instructed the Israelites to wish for the welfare of the town, I need to pray for my workforce. I need to pray for his or her welfare. And I do; I pray for my workforce by title, and I pray for the issues that they’ve occurring of their lives. However then, additionally, you already know, we see God telling them to all the time be on God’s workforce. Okay, yeah, you’re a part of this group, I need you to be a part of this group, I need you to be a blessing to them, however do not forget that we’re all the time on God’s workforce.
And so I feel if we are able to maintain these classes in thoughts, once more, it helps us to strategy work. So, for instance, like being a part of the workforce and issues like that, nicely, you already know, there’s some way of life selections that a few of my teammates make that I might not approve of, you already know, scripture doesn’t approve of these sorts of issues, however I nonetheless need to be a part of that workforce as a result of I can’t have affect if I simply separate myself from that individual or these folks. I need to be a part of the workforce. I don’t need to undertake their requirements or their existence or their beliefs or their values, however I nonetheless need to be amongst them and be a part of them in order that I could be an affect of their lives. You realize, that story I instructed in regards to the forgiveness, nicely, that might ‑‑ you already know, like I mentioned, he described himself as an atheist. Properly, I might by no means have had that chance to have some sort of affect if I had simply mentioned, “Oh, nicely, you’re an atheist, then neglect it. I can’t be a part of you.” You realize, God says, hey, be a part of the group. So I feel it’s vital for us to essentially perceive that, however, once more, we’re there for a objective, so all the time be on mission for God.
WES: I find it irresistible. It’s such sensible recommendation. I feel we’d be remiss if we didn’t finish with possibly declaring a few of the risks, the pitfalls, the obstacles that we face. The examples that you simply’ve used about Daniel after which Jeremiah, they’re written to and written about folks in exile, folks which can be, in a way, behind enemy strains, and we do want to acknowledge that we’re in exile. That doesn’t imply, as you mentioned, that we withdraw and we’ve got nothing to do with the folks and say, “Properly, we’re Christians and we’ve got to be separate.” That’s what the Pharisees did. They had been separatists. They didn’t need to have something to do with people who weren’t like them. So we do need to be on the workforce, however there are additionally some risks if you’re residing in exile, if you’re residing as God’s folks in a international land, so assist us to see a few of the risks we would look out for.
RUSTY: Yeah. Yeah, and I’m glad you introduced this up since you’re precisely proper, and we’ve got to pay attention to that. And, you already know, that’s one of many issues that scripture even encourages us to do, is we must be smart and discerning of the environment and folks which can be round us and issues like that. There are some actual risks. You realize, I take into consideration like in Daniel’s story ‑‑ nicely, a part of the hazard that he needed to face was that he had folks actively working in opposition to him. That will very nicely be one of many risks that a few of us face as Christ followers, you already know, and so we could face some totally different threats, even feeling like we’re sort of being ostracized at work due to our religion and our beliefs and issues like that. So there are some actual risks that we’ve got to pay attention to, however I feel one of many greatest risks is idolatry. I imply, as we all know in scripture, I imply, that is sort of the foundational sin operating all through the narrative of scripture. And you concentrate on idolatry, it’s ‑‑ you already know, in a easy time period or easy method, it’s actually placing one thing above God or seeking to one thing or somebody as a substitute of God for that means and achievement, for consolation, even, for power, issues like that. So it’s changing God with one thing, and in order that implies that even good issues can turn into idols. And so work is an efficient factor, however even work can turn into an idol as a result of I could make work the supply of my id, the supply of my achievement, the supply of my that means in life, and exchange God with work, and so I feel we’ve got to be actually involved in regards to the risks of idolatry within the office.
And there’s a number of, however three that I’ve discovered and that I’ve sort of encountered on this transition of mine is ‑‑ I imply, I assume, 4, as a result of, like I discussed, work itself can turn into an idol. However I feel one office idol that we must be actually conscious of is the idol of success, and that is the place we root our id in our efficiency moderately than in Christ or in God, and, man, that’s so tempting, you already know, as a result of we need to be good at our jobs, we need to be acknowledged as being good, we need to achieve success. I imply, you already know, even after I was a full‑time preacher, I nonetheless had that draw. I need to achieve success; I need to do good issues and good work and issues like that. The identical is true in a secular atmosphere, and so it’s actually intoxicating, you already know, to chase success, and so that may be an actual hazard as a result of, now, if that’s the place I’m getting my validation is in my achievements and recognitions and awards, nicely, now, you already know, I’m subtly ‑‑ typically not so subtly, however I’m subtly getting off the Jesus path and I get off mission and now I turn into self‑serving moderately than God‑serving. So I feel success is a kind of.
I feel cash, clearly, is an enormous‑time idol that we’ve got to watch out about. However what’s attention-grabbing is ‑‑ and there’s all types of research and analysis about this ‑‑ is that cash can be a kind of examples of idols all the time overpromise and beneath‑ship, as a result of there’s a ton of analysis that reveals that cash doesn’t accomplish what we predict it can accomplish in our lives, and but cash could be a massive idol.
And I additionally suppose becoming in is a office hazard that may turn into an idol, and, to me, the problem there may be, you already know, am I attempting to please folks greater than I’m attempting to please Christ? What am I doing? What’s actually on the coronary heart of my ambition right here? And the rationale I consider these three issues is as a result of, in a secular office atmosphere, these are sort of the metrics that you simply measure your self by, is how profitable are you by way of titles, promotion, all of these issues? How a lot cash you make is sort of the image of your price, and your worth is how a lot cash you make, after which simply becoming in and networking and being recognized. Man, that’s how folks in a secular work atmosphere are measuring themselves.
And so I feel we’ve got to watch out at not falling, ourselves, into these traps, and, once more, that may be very easy to do. And so I take into consideration, simply by way of success, we’ve obtained to ‑‑ our customary of success needs to be faithfulness. Am I being devoted? You realize, I take into consideration like Isaiah and Jeremiah. You realize, they’re instructed to be these messengers for God, but when we had been to measure their success by the requirements we measure preachers right now, they might be depressing failures, however they’re not failures as a result of their measurement of success was they had been devoted. They had been devoted to the duty that God gave them. And in order that’s how I need to measure myself. Am I devoted to the duty God has given me to hold out on this secular work atmosphere? And if I can keep centered on that, it will probably assist me to not fall prey to those risks of those office idols.
WES: Yeah. Oh, that’s so useful as a result of I feel that ‑‑ at the same time as we had been speaking in regards to the concept of being on mission for God and doing this for Jesus and being within the office for the Lord and for affect and being a constructive affect and ministering to different folks, I feel typically we are able to idiot ourselves into considering that’s what we’re doing once we’re actually stoking our personal ego, once we’re actually doing issues for egocentric, idolatrous causes, and we’re telling ourselves, oh, no, no, that is for the Lord, and I need to be within the in‑group in order that I can affect them, and I need a greater place as a result of the higher place I’ve, the extra folks I’ll be capable to affect and attain for the Lord. And we inform ourselves that we’re doing it for the Lord, however, in actuality, there’s an ulterior motive, and that’s why I feel that there’s a lot worth in quiet time, in research of scripture, in prayer, in being introspective, as a result of we’ve got to look at our personal motives and ask ourselves ‑‑ I really like the query you come again to, faithfulness. Am I being devoted? And if I’m, then I’m a hit. And the liberty, the freedom, the enjoyment of realizing that I might not be the best‑paid worker right here, I may not be essentially the most nicely‑favored individual right here, I may not be the individual with essentially the most prestigious job or workplace, however I’m being devoted to Jesus, and that’s what actually issues.
RUSTY: Completely proper. And such as you mentioned, that’s one thing that requires fixed introspection and examination. And so one of many issues that I do exactly as a easy concept is ‑‑ so I’ve written out for myself what I name a workday startup prayer and a workday shutdown prayer. And so, I’m sort of an organized man, however what that helps me to do is ‑‑ so I start my workday with this similar prayer, however I’ve written some particular issues in that prayer that I need to be conscious of as a result of it’s serving to me to start out my workday remembering what my actual objective is, the place my id comes from, that I need to be an instrument of peace and an envoy of Christ on this place. After which I finish my workday ‑‑ sort of a solution to simply sort of flip my mind off from work, you already know, is I finish my workday with one other prayer that, once more, helps me to only sort of consider, okay, was I devoted right now? You realize, was I a superb ambassador of Christ right now?
And so I feel, simply as followers of Christ in these secular environments dealing with these actual risks, we’ve obtained to place some issues into the routines of our day which can be serving to us to remain on process, serving to us to remain on mission and that comes with a few of that introspection and examination, as a result of if I’m not doing that, it may be really easy for me to get sucked into measuring success in a sophisticated method and all of these sorts of issues. So I feel the purpose you made is actually good, and I feel we have to simply undertake some disciplines and sort of rituals, so to talk, that assist us to remain on process.
WES: I really like that. I really like the truth that you used the phrase “rituals,” that there are spiritual rituals that ought to be a part of our, quote‑unquote, “secular work.” And, actually, we maintain utilizing that time period “secular” as a result of we want kind of a deal with to speak about it, however it actually isn’t secular. For believers, it’s spiritual work. The work that you simply’re doing now’s simply as spiritual, simply as religious because the work you had been doing earlier than. It’s simply as a lot ministry. In truth, Peter calls each believer a part of the royal priesthood, that we’re being monks, whether or not you’re a person, whether or not you’re a lady, no matter your job, no matter your function, even should you’re working at residence. My spouse is a keep‑at‑residence mother and he or she is homeschooling our boys, however she is doing a priesthood work. She is doing ministry in our residence. And if all people considered their office like that and considered their workday that method, that I’m going into my realm of ministry the place I’m going to be a priest for the Lord and I’m going to convey the blessings of God to my co‑staff and to the shoppers and to the folks I work together with, it could change the way in which that we do every thing, and such as you mentioned, it could develop the work of ministry throughout each metropolis and each state and each nation all through the world and can be what Jesus calls the dominion to be, this leaven that’s working by means of the lump of dough.
RUSTY: Yeah, completely. And also you’re proper; it adjustments how we take into consideration our work. Now, unexpectedly, work is extra thrilling. And so right here’s an attention-grabbing thought. So one of many issues that’s taking place within the office right now, sort of throughout the board, is there’s actual struggles with worker engagement. So a few years in the past, sort of the buzzword was “quiet quitting,” issues like that, and so employers are having an actual problem with retaining proficient workers, issues like that. Properly, what’s attention-grabbing is likely one of the components in that’s that ‑‑ there’s a management group referred to as McKinsey & Firm, they usually lately did a survey and located that 70% of the workers that they surveyed ‑‑ it was a big survey pattern ‑‑ 70% say that work is their main supply of that means and achievement in life. Okay, now take into consideration this. One of many causes for that’s as a result of right here, inside our nation, we’ve seen sort of the function of the church or the affect of the church in tradition has been in decline for a while. You realize, we’re actually shifting from sort of a non secular tradition to, now, very non‑spiritual, you already know, in a whole lot of methods. So what meaning is that fewer folks wish to God as a supply of that means, and so should you don’t have God, the place does that come from? Properly, work is sort of the one place that it will probably come from, however work can’t ship what God is supposed to ship and what solely God can ship. And so I feel there’s lots of people that ‑‑ they’re pissed off by work as a result of that’s the one place they’re in search of that means and achievement, they usually’re upset, you already know, and disgruntled, and all of these sorts of issues, and they also’re actually pissed off with work and it’s as a result of they’re seeking to work to offer them with one thing that solely their Creator can do.
In order followers of Jesus, we get this, however, once more, we could be tempted to make work the supply of our that means and our achievement. We could be simply as tempted to do this as others. However once we maintain work in its correct perspective, like what we’ve been speaking about, now work is energizing and I may take care of the frustrations at work in a extra constructive and productive method as a result of work is just not the last word supply of my that means and even of my id. And so I feel if we are able to put work again in its scriptural perspective, I feel not solely will we be extra happy, can be extra energized at work, but in addition we’ll be capable to see how the dominion of God and the alternatives we’ve got to be on mission for the dominion of God are actually throughout us and we are able to take extra benefit of that.
WES: Yeah. Amen. Amen. What a terrific place to cease. Rusty, thanks for this dialog, and thanks to your work within the kingdom, Brother.
RUSTY: Properly, thanks, Wes. I really like the podcast. Love what you’re doing, so carry on going, Brother.
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