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The apostle Paul wrote, “We don’t wrestle towards flesh and blood, however towards the rulers, towards the authorities, towards the cosmic powers over this current darkness, towards the non secular forces of evil within the heavenly locations” (Ephesians 6:12). Nevertheless, many Christians right this moment wrestle with actually understanding or appreciating the truth of non secular warfare. We frequently dismiss or gloss over biblical references to demonic forces, the unseen realm, and non secular battles. Why is having an consciousness of this stuff essential? How ought to we take into consideration the forces of evil and darkness described within the New Testomony?
This dialogue facilities round biblical teachings on non secular warfare, together with passages like 2 Corinthians 10 and Ephesians 6. It explores the character of our battle towards the satan and demonic forces, slightly than towards flesh and blood. Biblical ideas are examined, reminiscent of Christ’s ministry being targeted on reclaiming what belongs to God from Devil’s area. Right this moment’s visitor, Kerry Williams, shares insights into adopting a non secular mindset and understanding the overlapping realms of the bodily and non secular worlds.
Kerry Williams serves because the Dean of Graduate Research at Sundown Worldwide Bible Institute. He’s additionally director of the Tahoe Household Encampment. Williams has over 30 years of preaching expertise and has written books on the subject of non secular warfare, aiming to encourage better ardour and information about standing agency towards the schemes of the satan.
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Transcript (Credit score: Beth Tabor)
Welcome to the Radically Christian Bible research Podcast. I’m your host, Wes McAdams. Right here we have now one purpose: Study to like like Jesus. Right this moment we’re going to be speaking about non secular warfare. What does it imply to interact in warfare? What does it imply to wrestle towards the demonic forces within the heavenly realms, however not towards flesh and blood? Our visitor right this moment is Kerry Williams, who’s the Dean of Graduate Research at Sundown Worldwide Bible Institute. He’s additionally the director of the Tahoe Household Encampment.
I do know that you simply’re going to get pleasure from this dialog, however earlier than we get to that, I wish to learn from 2nd Corinthians chapter 10, beginning in verse 1. Paul says, “I, Paul, myself entreat you, by the meekness and gentleness of Christ ‑‑ I who am humble when nose to nose with you, however daring towards you when I’m away! ‑‑ I urge of you that when I’m current I’ll not have to point out boldness with such confidence as I rely on exhibiting towards some who suspect us of strolling in response to the flesh. For although we stroll within the flesh, we aren’t waging struggle in response to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare usually are not of the flesh however have divine energy to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and each lofty opinion raised towards the information of God, and take each thought captive to obey Christ, being able to punish each disobedience, when your obedience is full.”
I hope that right this moment’s Bible research and dialogue is encouraging to you, and, as at all times, I hope that it helps all of us study to like like Jesus.
WES: Kerry Williams, welcome to the podcast, Brother.
KERRY: Thanks. It’s actually good to be right here.
WES: Nicely, it’s nice to have you ever. I received to take heed to a sermon that you simply did ‑‑ I believe it was in all probability final 12 months, so it’s been a short time since you probably did it, however I simply received to take heed to it just lately, and it was unbelievable, about non secular warfare, and it’s fascinating that that appears to be a theme that I hold coming again to on the podcast. So there’s been loads of dialogue about sin and about evil, and evil even past the evil that we will see on the earth, which is sort of the place I wish to begin the dialog is, you recognize, there are such a lot of mentions within the New Testomony about non secular evil, evil that we will’t see, demonic forces. I take into consideration what James says about knowledge that’s earthly, he mentioned is unspiritual, and he even makes use of the phrase demonic. Paul clearly talks in regards to the forces of evil, the rulers and authorities and powers.
However I believe typically, or at the least the best way that I grew up, we simply sort of learn over these as type of a rhetorical flourish or simply some type of rhetorical gadget, and we, you recognize, simply take it to imply that it’s actually dangerous or one thing like that. However we don’t typically, I believe, take into consideration and are conscious that there are forces of evil and darkness. And also you talked about in your sermon about demons present within the non secular aircraft and that type of overlapping with the bodily aircraft, so let’s speak about that for just a bit bit, if that’s okay. Simply why is it essential for us to have an consciousness of demonic forces, non secular evil forces, and what ought to we take into consideration that?
KERRY: Nicely, sort of constructing on what you mentioned about why it’s, maybe, that we don’t dive into this very deeply, I believe that it does need to do with simply glossing over issues that perhaps we don’t totally perceive, however I believe there’s sort of a root cause for that, and that’s sort of in our very identification of how we strategy, homiletically and hermeneutically, the scriptures, how we ‑‑ I imply, we’re Restorationists and we come out of the Restoration custom and the Restoration background, which you and I each imagine in strongly in that homiletic to have the ability to restore New Testomony Christianity. However in my research, it sort of opened my eyes as a result of in my doctoral work, I did lots on Restoration fathers and sort of the background of the place that every one got here from, and it simply sort of clicked with me we’re not snug with something we will’t clearly outline as a result of we come from that Lockean, Baconian, logical custom the place we’re skilled to seek out, properly, if the Bible says it, that’s what it means. However what can we do with the topics ‑‑ and just about, throughout the board, each topic the place there’s vagueness in scripture, the place it’s a grey space of, “Nicely, it looks like this or it could be this,” slightly than concretely? We’re not good with that. I imply, we wrestle with it.
And what I discovered was that, you recognize, you look again in our background and we very a lot wish to give individuals concrete solutions. We’re very formulaic in how we strategy the scriptures, which I believe shouldn’t be a nasty factor in any respect. Actually, I believe it’s induced us to reach at reality that wanted to be discovered and delivered to the non secular world and to the misplaced. So it’s not a critique of it, however I believe we grew to become so adjusted and used to that, that we get to the purpose the place, if it’s not one thing we can provide a transparent sure or a transparent no ‑‑ I imply, everyone knows how formulaic we’re about issues. I imply, “hear, imagine, repent, confess, be baptized.” I imply, these steps ‑‑ you don’t discover that in anyplace in scripture the place these are ordered in that approach, however but extraordinarily formulaic. A few of our previous preachers, I’ve heard classes from them in regards to the 5 steps very plainly, and you’ll’t get the steps out of order.
Nicely, how does that even work with regards to, like, repentance and confession? A few of that stuff is lifelong. It begins, you recognize, however we simply need it to be so clear, step-by-step by step, that ‑‑ you recognize, 5 acts of worship. I imply, we’re nice about formulation, however there are some issues in scripture that simply don’t match into any sort of components, and throughout the board we’ve been this fashion. Take into consideration the Holy Spirit. I imply, a few of the arguments which might be made in regards to the Holy Spirit, if you speak about “phrase solely” versus whether or not there’s an precise indwelling and all of that ‑‑ I imply, we attempt to strategy a topic that we simply can’t actually totally perceive in all of its completeness, and, in that, we provide you with all kinds of looking for concrete, absolute sure or no’s.
WES: Yeah, yeah. Do you assume ‑‑ and I heard in your sermon that you simply taught philosophy, I assume, at a school stage.
KERRY: Sure.
WES: And do you assume that that is ‑‑ that loads of that ‑‑ you talked about a number of, you recognize, causes we predict this fashion, however do you assume that that is type of a Western mindset that we have now as we strategy the scripture versus extra of an historic Close to Japanese/Japanese mentality that they’d have had once they wrote the scriptures that we try to ‑‑ I virtually really feel like we’re attempting to research and break down such as you would when you heard a poem or a tune and we’re attempting to take a look at it scientifically or mathematically. It’s like, that’s not the way it works. That’s not how poetry works or that’s not how this style of literature works. And so do you assume we have now that tendency to learn it via a really Western lens?
KERRY: I positively assume that, you recognize, our Western advantage/ethics sort of philosophy ‑‑ I imply, our approach of life, even right this moment, is so very completely different than the Japanese world. You understand, they’ve a really, very Confucian mindset the place concord issues. I imply, you recognize this if you go and also you watch a baseball recreation in Japan right this moment. They don’t inform ERA; they don’t inform batting averages. They aren’t involved with the person in any respect. They’re involved with the entire, with concord, and your house within the bigger society or group, or no matter it might be, the place we come from a really Western mindset that comes from the Greeks and Romans, primarily, they usually had extra of a meritorious sort of strategy to issues, a meritocracy, you recognize, that it’s worthwhile to obtain the perfect individualistically you could, and we adopted that.
That’s even true in our founding paperwork. I imply, Benjamin Franklin was a advantage ethicist, and we see that a lot. It runs via our society prime to backside. And so, sure, I believe that has ‑‑ you recognize, the scientific methodology happened, John Locke, Bacon, these guys who influenced our pondering. And when you learn Campbell, I imply, he was powerfully influenced by these sort of individuals, and Stone, to rather less diploma, however fairly closely, as properly. And they also searched the scriptures, and cause is what’s promoted again and again and over. Purpose, cause. And in order that sort of involves virtually, such as you mentioned, a scientific methodology of how do you pull out evidences and ‑‑ I imply, take into consideration even the hermeneutic of command, instance, and mandatory inference. Nicely, the thought of mandatory inference is you could come to an affordable, logical conclusion from evidences that’s relevant and binding.
And so, yeah, these are good issues. I imply, I believe we’ve ‑‑ I respect them and love them and can by no means abandon them. Nevertheless, some of these items in scripture, they have been from a mystical perspective, and there’s not a lot room for mysticism in how we presently ‑‑ or at the least how I grew up and the way it sounds perhaps you grew up ‑‑ in how we have been taught to take a look at scripture. We have been taught to seek out the concrete, to seek out absolutely the, and simply not likely given any instruments to have the ability to take a look at issues that we all know, from the beginning, don’t slot in that field.
Right here’s an incredible illustration. So I train a doctoral class on Revelation, and, actually, the entire classwork that we do is looking for a date as a result of, as you recognize, everything of Revelation adjustments based mostly upon the way you date the guide. And as we’re diving into that, one of many issues I emphasize within the first-class is that if you write your closing undertaking ‑‑ as a result of in a doctoral course, it’s, you recognize, 35, 40 pages; it’s an enormous undertaking ‑‑ I’ll dock you in your grades when you write to me like most of our brothers do once they write of their commentaries, which is like this: “Nicely, it is a onerous topic, however I discovered the reply.” I imply, you’ve learn commentaries on Revelation. Have you ever seen that sort of factor earlier than? “I imply, I discovered it. That is what it means.” I’ve been educating and finding out that guide all my life since I’ve been in ministry, 30‑plus years, and I’m not prepared to say I do know what it means. I imply, I do know what I believe it means and what’s most sensible and cheap for me to imagine on it. However even on stuff like that, we have now to strategy it like, “Okay, right here’s the components. Right here’s the reply.” There’s no room for questioning, no room for, “Nicely, it could be this, however we simply can’t ensure, however the general message of the guide doesn’t change.” We don’t do this a lot. We wish to inform individuals precisely what these horns imply, precisely what these beasts are, with out query. I imply, that’s how we strategy stuff. And with regards to non secular warfare, identical to the Holy Spirit, identical to apocalyptic literature, that components simply ‑‑ it doesn’t work very properly, so you recognize what you do? Lots of people simply keep away from it.
WES: Yeah, as a result of I believe we assume that if there’s not certainty on one thing, if there’s any type of ambiguity about it, it should not be essential. And if I can’t ‑‑ if the Bible doesn’t lay out in XYZ, ABC, very, very clear phrases what’s a demon, the place do demons come from, why are there demons ‑‑ you recognize, if the Bible doesn’t lay all of that out, then it should not be essential.
I used to be pondering, as you have been speaking, about the best way that I grew up studying the gospel accounts and the way completely different it’s now for me, as a result of once I would learn the gospel accounts, you recognize, I used to be simply searching for, you recognize, what did Jesus do? You understand, he was born, he lived, he was good, he died, he was buried, he rose. That’s it. After which what do I must do in response to that? You understand, I must repent and be baptized. Nicely, if you simply sit down and skim the gospel accounts, it’s sort of stunning now to me how a lot of it’s about non secular warfare, how a lot of it’s about Jesus reclaiming what belongs to his Father from the area of Devil, and a lot of it’s about casting out demons and the demonic, and we simply type of gloss over all of that, and we are saying, properly, you recognize, yeah, that occurred, but it surely actually isn’t essential for the story.
Not too way back I used to be preaching a sermon in regards to the cross and about atonement theories, and I requested individuals, what half, if any, does the demonic world play in your atonement concept? Like does which have any ‑‑ is there any area in your creativeness for what’s the cross all about and what does that need to do with Devil and the demonic forces of evil? As a result of for Paul and for the gospel writers, for Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, I believe it had lots to do with what Jesus was as much as, what Jesus’ ministry was all about, what the cross was all about, and what the resurrection is all about and even his present and current reign. And so we have now simply type of dismissed all of that and we’ve made every thing about simply me and God and forgot that there are different non secular forces that exist within the heavenly locations, within the unseen locations that we simply usually are not conscious of, and we type of dismiss the importance of them.
KERRY: Nicely, the discomfort is actual. I imply, I’ve been doing seminars on this. I’ve written a pair books on non secular warfare and a novel on it, and I’ve achieved these seminars across the nation. I bear in mind, a number of years in the past, I’m preaching in a spot and my mother and pop have been in a position to come, and there have been a number of lessons occurring on the similar time. And also you’ve received to know that, to my mom, the best preacher who ever walked the earth is Jesus, and quantity two is her son. I imply, she’s my mom. Okay? And my mother didn’t come to my class. My dad did, however my mother didn’t come to my class. And I requested her afterwards, I mentioned, “Mother, what” ‑‑ she mentioned, “Nicely, I went to the opposite class.” I mentioned, “Mother, what” ‑‑ she mentioned, “Nicely, when you’d simply train on one thing else aside from that hocus‑pocus stuff,” she mentioned, “it simply makes me uncomfortable,” and that’s my very own mother, who would come and listen to me learn out of the phone guide. However she is uncomfortable with it since you simply can’t get clear, outlined solutions, and that’s what she’s been taught to anticipate and to seek out consolation in.
WES: Yeah. Let’s discuss somewhat bit about 2nd Corinthians 10, as a result of that was one of many texts that you simply utilized in your sermon. For Paul, as he’s explaining his ministry and the best way that he operates, how do you assume that he sees himself participating in non secular warfare? I believe what we type of think about typically that which means, “non secular warfare,” or what non secular warfare entails is sort of completely different than what the New Testomony writers bear in mind, what Paul has in thoughts in Ephesians 6 or in 2nd Corinthians 10. However how does his apostolic ministry ‑‑ how is that non secular warfare, do you assume?
KERRY: Nicely, he makes very clear there that the weapons of our struggle usually are not carnal, and I believe that’s so highly effective traditionally, that the Lord’s church was persecuted and the federal government powers that be, probably the most highly effective empire that’s ever been on the face of the earth tried for lots of of years to stamp out Christianity intermittently. You understand, completely different emperors have been worse than others, however on the finish of that 300 or so years, you discover the Emperor Constantine is transformed to Christianity, and never one sword that we all know of was ever drawn within the title of Christ as a result of this struggle is of a non secular nature, not bodily. And the factor is, is that we’ve made so many issues so bodily ‑‑ which that is true in scripture. I imply, you possibly can’t miss all of the holiness passages. You’ll be able to’t skip over, you recognize, to not stay just like the world and be just like the world. There’s little question that there’s a bodily part to what we do and who we’re and who we’re referred to as to be. However I believe we focus typically a lot on that bodily part: keep away from ungodliness, stay a holy life, you recognize, attempt for righteousness. And all of that’s true and good, but it surely nonetheless sort of restricts it to the issues that we will work together with with our 5 senses, and if we will’t work together with our 5 senses, we don’t consider it as being highly effective.
And I ponder if probably the most vital second in the true world ‑‑ I imply, I say this on a regular basis, you recognize, that we’ve seen all kinds of science fiction and issues that attempt to describe the thought of dwelling in two worlds. I believe like The Matrix and issues like which might be in all probability fairly good. I imply, once I noticed that movie for the primary time, I used to be sort of floored as a result of I’d already studied loads of non secular warfare, and I’m like, that is sort of what it’s like. You understand, we stay in a very, very clear world to us, so far as what we will see, however there’s one other world that we will’t see, hear, style, contact, or scent that’s the actual world. And the scriptures inform us that we stay in each ‑‑ concurrently in each. And in order we go about our days, it might appear to be a really insignificant factor after we’re sitting throughout a desk at Starbucks with our Bible open, however the best way I perceive what Paul is saying there in regards to the casting down of arguments, after which he says in Ephesians 6 that our wrestle shouldn’t be towards flesh and blood however towards princes ‑‑ I imply, the struggle shouldn’t be towards depraved individuals in Washington who’re casting [votes], you recognize, and producing all these legal guidelines which might be ungodly. Actually, I see Christians so frightened about that on a regular basis and, like, you recognize what? We actually ought to anticipate depraved individuals to do depraved issues. It shouldn’t shock us. And we get all concerned in all that when it’s in all probability extra vital, within the non secular world, sitting throughout the desk at Starbucks together with your Bible open than even what you do within the poll field or what we do civically or ‑‑ I imply, that’s the struggle that the Bible says issues, the struggle over the souls of individuals after which the struggle that goes on inside us.
I imply, I typically say the satan ‑‑ and I discuss in regards to the satan on a regular basis due to the non secular‑warfare emphasis, however the satan is our second best enemy. I imply, the best enemy is the one which we have now to grasp inside ourselves, and that may be a non secular struggle in and of itself. That’s the highly effective ‑‑ I imply, Romans chapter 7 ‑‑ speak about a passage that we gloss over ‑‑ the place Paul talks about “The issues that I do are the issues that I hate and the issues that I even follow,” some variations use. “Who will ship me from this physique of demise?” He’s not speaking in regards to the Paul that he was once, as a result of the context is he’s speaking about his personal wrestle, and he didn’t have a conscience downside earlier than he grew to become a Christian. He says, “I did every thing with a transparent conscience.” Now he’s conscious of his wrestle, his sarx, his flesh, sinful nature, no matter phrase you wish to use, and the struggle that’s inside him. We’re speaking about, arguably, some of the mature Christian males that any of us might ever aspire to, proper? However but that struggle is occurring inside him.
And I believe, to know non secular warfare, we have now to assume spiritually. Now we have to strive our highest to think about ‑‑ that’s why I’ve tried to jot down on this even some fictional issues. Not as a result of ‑‑ and I make very clear it’s in all probability not this fashion, however at the least this stuff are in step with scripture, and I wish to get individuals’s minds excited about what might be occurring round me. Am I actually right here alone? You understand, I believe individuals assume that we’re alone. However are we alone? Are we ever alone? I imply, angels, demons, the satan ‑‑ I imply, the Bible says that they’re right here, and there are such a lot of cases the place they’re witnessed. You understand, like each time you see one thing like Balaam’s donkey ‑‑ the donkey noticed him, noticed the angel when Balaam couldn’t, and the Bible doesn’t say that half was a miracle. Now, the entire speaking factor is ‑‑ yeah, that will get miraculous, however he sees it. Elisha, when the servant comes up on the wall, opened his eyes, after which he sees them ‑‑ they have been there earlier than he noticed it. They have been actual, simply couldn’t work together with our 5 senses.
WES: Yeah, I like the best way that you simply describe that as type of this overlapping world and that they’re each right here, they’re each current. Actually, you used the phrases “actual world,” and we do have a tendency to consider the bodily world, the issues that we will see that ‑‑ the seen world, we have a tendency to think about that as the true world, however there’s a way wherein the unseen world is ‑‑ for us particularly, is extra actual. It’s the place our hope lies, is on this unseen world, and likewise the place this battle is being performed. And, you recognize, I take into consideration Ephesians 6, and I take into consideration the best way that Ephesians 6 was at all times taught to me once I was rising up and this non secular armor that we placed on, the armor of God that we placed on.
KERRY: Burger King crowns, proper? And trash‑can‑lid shields.
WES: Yeah. And I at all times noticed the poster that we’d put up in Bible school rooms. Actually, there’s in all probability nonetheless, you recognize, tons of these even at this constructing proper now, and, you recognize, it’s at all times sort of bothered me that we focus all of our consideration on the metaphor of the helmet and the breastplate and the sword and the footwear and the belt, however that’s not Paul’s level. His level is that salvation and righteousness and the gospel and the phrase of God, these are the issues that shield you. These are the issues with which you might be doing battle. And I at all times inform individuals, when you learn Ephesians 6 and also you come away afraid, you’re not studying it proper. Both that otherwise you’re not armed; you’re not carrying the armor. However in case you are geared up with salvation and righteousness and the Phrase of God and the Gospel of Peace, then we have now nothing to fret about and we will have interaction on this struggle, even a struggle that we will’t see however that we’re conscious of, however we have interaction in it in a approach that may appear slightly strange.
I used to be speaking to school college students one time and speaking about non secular warfare, and I mentioned, actually, we have interaction in it via Bible research, via prayer, via fasting, via worship. You understand, all of this stuff are acts of non secular warfare, and it appears slightly mundane and strange, and in a approach it’s, however we have now to, I believe, placed on these non secular lenses, as you have been saying, and I believe that’s ‑‑ I believe you’re precisely proper. Like, not solely The Matrix you talked about, however I take into consideration C.S. Lewis and the world of Narnia that he type of painted, that that world exists and that we really exist in it and are doing issues inside that world by doing this stuff that appear strange however are something however strange.
KERRY: Proper. Nicely, and other people don’t ‑‑ I believe the best way we learn it’s that ‑‑ I’ve requested individuals earlier than, in seminars and issues, who do you assume the satan is personally engaged on right this moment? You understand, as a result of the best way I learn the New Testomony, he simply sort of adopted Jesus round for 3 and a half years, proper? However the satan ‑‑ I imply, when you perceive him to be a fallen angel, which I believe Ezekiel and ‑‑ you recognize, even when it says “don’t fall into the identical condemnation because the satan” when it’s speaking about an elder should not be a brand new convert and his satisfaction that matched up along with his ‑‑ I believe there’s simply loads of proof that he was an angel, if not the archangel ‑‑ I sort of suspect the archangel ‑‑ earlier than. And, certainly, if that’s true, if he fell, then he’s actually extra highly effective than any human being, much less highly effective than God by infinite measure, however he can be sure by the foundations or the legal guidelines that have an effect on angels.
Nicely, in Daniel chapter 10, you have got him ‑‑ Daniel prays for interpretation to a imaginative and prescient, and this angel seems to him three weeks later, and the angel says, “Nicely, I couldn’t get there, however I used to be held up by the Prince of Persia and I couldn’t get free for 21 days. After which Michael, the archangel, got here and fought with that Prince of Persia, and now I’m in a position to convey you this message.” However that tells us one thing. Angels are sure by time and area. In different phrases, they’ll’t be in two locations without delay, and it tells us that their notion of time is precisely the identical as ours as a result of it was the identical three weeks for the angel that it was for Daniel.
Now, what which means is the satan is in a single place proper now on this earth. And so I’ve requested individuals, properly, who do you assume he’s engaged on proper now? And the reply is at all times a president or Beyonce or one thing. You understand, individuals at all times say one thing like that, and I’m like, why? He’s received them. You perceive the world sort of runs on autopilot due to our personal flesh, proper? So who’s his enemy? Is the president his enemy? No. Beyonce shouldn’t be his enemy. I imply, you recognize, whether or not it’s a film star or a politician or whoever it might be, no, that’s not the struggle. The Bible says the struggle is between Christians, us, and the satan, and that every one these individuals on the market usually are not the enemy. I imply, he says our wrestle shouldn’t be towards flesh and blood, interval.
I perceive the satan makes use of the enemy powerfully and that he can use individuals and make them very harmful to us, however they’re nonetheless not the ‑‑ it’s sort of like Omaha Seaside in World Conflict II. That was a harmful place for our troopers to land as a result of they’d land mines, they’d barbed wire, they’d mortar emplacements. However despite the fact that the seaside was harmful, the seaside was the target, not the enemy, and so that you might need to combat towards the seaside as a way to win the seaside again. And that also occurs, proper? That’s the character of ‑‑ so I believe what would assist Christians greater than anything is to get out of their thoughts that persons are the enemy. Individuals are not the enemy. I imply, sure, persons are depraved they usually’re getting used mightily by the enemy typically, however they’re not the enemy. However you see, that’s how we see non secular warfare, in such simplistic phrases which might be inconsistent with every thing the scriptures train, which is that it’s us versus him, the satan, and his minions, and probably the most vital factor that may occur occurs over espresso tables or at Starbucks or occurs over e-mail, when you’re finding out with any individual. Our weapons ‑‑ going again to the 2nd Corinthians passage, our weapons usually are not carnal however for the tearing down of arguments. Why? So we will win the souls of individuals again to him.
WES: Yeah. Nicely, that’s why I at all times like to inform people who we should always consider people who have positioned themselves as our enemies, have positioned themselves towards us, unbelievers and other people on the earth ‑‑ we should always consider them as prisoners of struggle. We should always consider them as prisoners of our enemy slightly than our enemy, that our purpose ‑‑ as you mentioned, they’re our goal. Our goal is to liberate them, and so if we have been, you recognize, in a bodily battle, in a bodily struggle, we’d acknowledge that the prisoners of struggle ‑‑ even when they’re getting used or leveraged towards us, they’re individuals to be liberated and free of their captors simply as we as soon as ‑‑ we as soon as have been these individuals. We have been on the enemy’s aspect as a result of we had been captured by these lies and by that deceit. Not that we have been harmless in it, after all, we gave into it, however we have been captured by the satan to do his will, and so we should always have compassion on these which might be so enslaved to the evil one and we ought to be in search of to set them free, to liberate them, slightly than to destroy them or combat towards them.
KERRY: Nicely, you recognize, proof that we see this incorrect is if you ask one other query ‑‑ I ask loads of stimulating questions, and one of many questions I additionally ask is, properly, so who’s on the offense and who’s on the protection on this struggle? And I’m telling you, most believers get that incorrect, proper? As a result of they consider us as being on the protection, and, certainly, we’re surrounded by ‑‑ we’re approach outnumbered, however in response to Ephesians chapter 6, I imply, the true dynamic is we’re like particular forces which might be armed higher, proper? And sure, we’re behind enemy traces and we’re surrounded by the enemy each single day, however we’re higher geared up and we’re ‑‑ if we have now our scriptures and we all know them, we’re higher skilled. However but individuals see ‑‑ that’s why I believe typically the church right this moment ‑‑ and you recognize this; you converse locations, and issues ‑‑ brethren are overwhelmed down they usually assume that the world’s by no means been worse than it’s.
That’s ‑‑ traditionally, as a historian, that’s completely not true. For those who take a look at the size of the place the world’s been ‑‑ I’m speaking morally, righteously, nonetheless you wish to describe it, we’re nonetheless on the highest edge. I imply, it might be lots worse than it’s, however but, we simply have our experiences, and we predict it’s so dangerous. And so we have now sort of a circle‑the‑wagons sort of mindset, that we gotta survive, we gotta defend, we gotta survive. However what does Matthew 16 say? Jesus says, you recognize, “On this rock I’ll construct my church, and the gates of Hades is not going to prevail towards it.” And I’ve studied loads of army historical past, and what I’ve by no means learn is any offensive military carrying their gates with them. That’s not a instrument of offense. That could be a instrument of ultimate protection. And Jesus doesn’t describe his church buildings on the protection. He describes his church buildings taking the combat to the very gates of Hades, and that’s what we’re referred to as to be, as a result of in the long run, I imply, it’s abundantly ‑‑ we will’t lose until we give up. I imply, that’s simply the final word reality of ‑‑ if we stroll within the gentle as he’s within the gentle, we will’t lose until we give up. I imply, we’re invincible to the enemy. In the true world, now, sure, we might undergo and we might face all kinds of issues on this life and we might even have our lives taken from us bodily, however we can’t lose. And so all he tries to do, every thing ‑‑ the satan’s technique, it’s summed up on this: Get us to both flip ourselves over to him or to give up. That’s it. That’s his total goal. So if he can tempt us with sin, the place we abandon our religion, properly, then he will get us. If he can get us to be so afraid or not do something or be so distraught about what’s occurring on the earth that we simply sit again and fear about ourselves, then we’re no menace to him. That’s his total technique.
WES: Nicely, that’s sobering. That’s actually sobering. Kerry, you’re employed lots with the church in numerous methods, with preachers and academics and evangelists, and even with members and Christians of the Tahoe Encampment and thru Sundown, and so I wish to simply discuss practicality right here. How can we assist these individuals which might be our leaders, whether or not they’re main in a congregation or they’re main of their residence ‑‑ how can we assist them to see the battle that’s occurring and to be engaged in it, to be on the offense and to go in carrying the armor of God and ready to do the work that we’re referred to as to do? How can we assist get the church throughout the globe engaged within the battle?
KERRY: Nicely, you recognize, after all, from my perspective, I believe it has to do with schooling, however greater than that. We hear that phrase as the answer to each downside on the earth, proper? “Nicely, if we simply have extra schooling.” Nicely, sure, however what I’m that means extra by that’s information and keenness. I imply, our individuals need to get enthusiastic about this and be capable of perceive who the enemy is. I imply, you recognize, I believe, theologically ‑‑ and we don’t have time to speak about all that right this moment, however there’s some underpinnings of why non secular warfare is difficult for us to know, and I can show it to you by this. I imply, I’ve been preaching 30‑plus years; you’ve been preaching a protracted, very long time. I’ve by no means, ever, in the entire grief that I’ve seen in individuals’s lives, which I’d by no means, by no means disparage that or ‑‑ I imply, we harm for individuals, however I’ve by no means seen a believer, once they’re going via ache, blame the satan, however you understand how many occasions I’ve seen them blame God? There’s a deep theological downside with that. Clearly, we don’t perceive God and we don’t perceive the satan, as a result of God shouldn’t be the enemy, proper? However but, theologically, that’s the place individuals go. I don’t know, have you ever seen that sort of factor earlier than?
WES: Yeah, completely. I imply, there’s books and there’s seminars and there’s all types of issues about God and type of coping with and grappling with and wrestling with our anger at God when dangerous issues occur. However yeah, once more, the entire level of the scriptures is that this isn’t the best way that our good God supposed the world to be, nor the best way that ‑‑ nor his intention for the longer term.
KERRY: Nicely, and we’ve purchased right into a refined Calvinism that nearly makes us assume that every thing that occurs within the non secular world, the satan has to get direct ‑‑ now, there’s a distinction between direct permission and oblique permission. You understand, when you give your child the keys to the automotive and also you say “Go,” I imply, simply since you didn’t inform them they couldn’t go there, that’s sort of oblique since you made the circumstance, proper? However direct permission, the place, “Nicely, Dad, can I’m going right here? Sure or no?” ‑‑ it’s virtually like individuals assume that the satan sends an e-mail to God each time he desires to do one thing terrible, and God provides him permission or he can’t do it. That’s simply not true in Scripture. I don’t know the place we received it, however individuals imagine that en masse.
So I believe, initially, we have now to get individuals to see God. It hurts me a lot for God. I wish to defend his character. I don’t assume that something ‑‑ now, he does chasten us, he does self-discipline us, however the large, dangerous horrible issues in life usually are not God. I don’t imagine it. And, you recognize, if you may get individuals enthusiastic about this, then perhaps once they’re hurting ‑‑ I imply, I discuss to God every single day, however I discuss to the satan each every so often, and what I imply by that’s I’ve screamed out his title and mentioned, “This hurts, however you’ll by no means win. Convey on the rain as a result of you’ll by no means win,” as a result of I see him concerned in these processes in my life, and I don’t assume individuals see it. I imply, perhaps they might intellectually once they’re listening to this podcast or no matter, however when their life has fallen aside, it’s just like the satan’s out of the equation and it’s all God. And what does that do to his character? I imply, the God who loves us a lot he’d give himself for us. No. And so I believe that’s the very first thing ‑‑ that’s what I attempt to do, is encourage ardour about this stuff in individuals’s lives to point out God’s character. He’s on our aspect. In every thing, he’s on our aspect.
I’m the Dean of the Graduate Faculty at Sundown, train loads of lessons there, grasp’s and doctoral. I’ve a category on non secular warfare as a result of if I can get preachers to be enthusiastic about it, then that’s the method of getting members to be enthusiastic about it. I direct the Tahoe Household Encampment. We at all times have one thing on non secular warfare yearly as a result of I believe it’s such an essential subject. As I mentioned, I completed a novel. It’s referred to as Angel at Conflict, and it’s sort of the ‑‑ I name it the other of The Screwtape Letters, when you’ve learn that, as a result of that’s a few demon, and my novel is about an angel as he’s defending a Christian and every thing that occurs in there. And I don’t know that that’s precisely how it’s, and I make that clear within the foreword of the guide, however I wish to get individuals’s minds rolling on this, after which, after all, via seminars and issues.
And I believe that’s the place we begin, is we have now to be enthusiastic about it ourselves, and, you recognize, you gained’t be enthusiastic about one thing when you don’t have a robust cause. And my cause is I’m bored with even Christians who disparage ‑‑ unintentionally a lot of the time, however disparage the character of God as a result of, you recognize, it’s virtually as if we didn’t ‑‑ you recognize, we learn all these Previous Testomony tales and we simply see the horrible particulars typically, however we don’t see the God who ‑‑ when Abraham lied about Sarah for the second time, Abimelech’s the one which’s gonna be punished, and why not Abraham? Nicely, that doesn’t even appear simply. As a result of Abraham was God’s buddy and Abimelech wasn’t. And also you look via David ‑‑ I imply, what a colossal sinner, what an immensely flawed man, however but he’s that man after God’s personal coronary heart as a result of, you see, that’s right through scripture. Non secular issues are what matter probably the most. Now, the opposite stuff issues, too, however they matter probably the most. However it’s like we push these to the aspect and ‑‑ no. I suppose it’s doable to get passionate in regards to the particulars, however if you see the large image, I believe that’s the place my ardour comes from, is I wish to defend God, who’s my Lord, my Savior, and my buddy. I wish to defend his character, and I wish to present that he’s not the enemy. He’s our nice assist, our nice consolation. He’s our nice weapon as we face towards an enemy that, frankly, he hates us and he’s malicious. And it’s humorous as a result of he’ll give individuals wealth and energy and affect solely to drag it out from below them and snort of their face. That’s his character.
WES: Nicely, I take into consideration how sensible every thing you’re saying is, and I take into consideration Job’s associates. And despite the fact that they have been type of blaming Job for the tragedies that he was going via, they have been in all probability properly‑intentioned guys. That’s the best way so lots of this stuff, I believe, start, is with properly‑intentioned feedback within the face of tragedy and horrible issues which have occurred in individuals’s lives. And so typically individuals will say issues like, “Nicely, you recognize, God wanted one other flower in his backyard and that’s why this particular person died,” or we’ll say issues to individuals, “I don’t know why God took them, however I’m positive God has his causes.” And I wish to cease ‑‑ and I continually say in funerals ‑‑ I remind individuals what Paul says in 1st Corinthians 15, that demise is an enemy. Now, we all know, as Christians, that the sting of demise has been eliminated for us as a result of we’re forgiven, as a result of we don’t need to be afraid of demise, however that also doesn’t change the truth that it’s an enemy that God longs to destroy. That is an enemy that Devil has utilized in his arsenal and that God goes to destroy demise, and we lengthy for that day, however so typically we take and we act like God is the killer, that God is the one who’s utilizing demise. It’s not God that’s utilizing demise. God is on the aspect of life. God brings life into the world and God longs to lift his individuals from the lifeless and liberate them from the maintain of demise. And so I believe, so typically, we get the image backwards as a result of we’ve taken Devil and the demonic forces and even the personification of demise out of the image, and so we have now nobody else in charge however God.
KERRY: And we so missed it as a result of ‑‑ I imply, the primary reminiscence verse in all probability everyone learns is the shortest verse within the Bible from John ‑‑ what’s it, John 11, proper? And, you recognize, it’s like we missed the purpose of that altogether, as a result of when it says Jesus wept ‑‑ he has no cause to weep. In like 5 minutes he’s going to lift Lazarus from the lifeless. And all of these ‑‑ I imply, have you ever ever had a circumstance with any individual they usually sort of thought it was going to be a method, disenchanted, however you bought an incredible shock for them, proper? I imply, it’s good. They’re about to ‑‑ in truth, it’s sweeter to see the enjoyment once they’ve sort of been disenchanted first. Nicely, think about Jesus knew he’s about to lift Lazarus from the lifeless. All these tears ‑‑ he is aware of that. He’s about to do it. Why does he weep? As a result of he weeps that we have now to ‑‑ you recognize, he’s elevating Lazarus, however they’re going to undergo it once more, and everyone who lives on this world goes to undergo it once more. He wasn’t weeping for Lazarus. Sure, Mary, Martha considerably, however not in that instant as a result of they’re about to be actually glad. He weeps as a result of we have now to face that enemy, and God cares.
You understand that previous tune, “Does Jesus care once I’ve mentioned goodbye to the dearest on earth to me?” John 11 is simply so highly effective as a result of he cares. He’s not the enemy. However but, how should it harm him the best way Christians take a look at it? And it’s as a result of, I imagine, we’ve been influenced by ‑‑ individuals sort of assume God is the chess grasp, that each single factor that occurs, occurs along with his permission, his direct ‑‑ I imply, that may’t be so. It’s not a struggle, then. I imply, if Ukraine has to name and ask Russia’s permission for each single missile they ship, that’s not a struggle. And perceive, that will get into deep theological wranglings. Nicely, perhaps we shouldn’t run away from the deep. Possibly that’s what maturity is about, rising, wrestling with issues, scuffling with them. However I do know that any conclusion that we provide you with that makes it God’s fault and maligns his character is the incorrect conclusion.
WES: There’s such a distinction, I believe, if you learn the Psalms. There’s typically frustration with God, even if you learn Revelation and the martyrs are crying out, “How lengthy?” However even in that, it’s both celebrating the deliverance of God or anticipating the deliverance of God as a result of the psalmist is saying, or the lifeless in Christ are saying, “How lengthy?” as a result of they’re seeking to God for his or her deliverance, for his or her salvation. Moderately than blaming God, they know that God is able to bringing all of this ache and struggling to an finish. The one query is, “Why are you ready?” And I believe that’s typically a very good query, but it surely’s not a superb query when you assume God is the one who induced the ache and struggling within the first place. It’s not God who induced it, however God who’s going to convey it to an finish. It’s good and proper to ask, “God, I don’t know what you’re doing, and why are you ready and why don’t you repair this?” After all, Peter provides us the reply, as a result of he’s affected person and he desires extra individuals to come back to salvation. However we have now to know that God is the one who weeps with us. He hates demise and illness and destruction infinitely greater than we do. He weeps after we weep. He weeps much more than that as a result of he can see what we will’t see. And so typically we predict that God is simply stoically watching all of this occur and so disconnected from that, and that’s so the other of the gospel. The gospel is that we have now a God who suffers with us, who empathizes with us to the nth diploma, who grew to become human in order that he might undergo with us and liberate us from the struggling.
KERRY: Nicely, and I believe the opposite factor that can assist individuals see non secular warfare is if you transfer previous faith into relationship as a result of ‑‑ I imply, we do follow a faith, however, I imply, if you search not simply to observe God and do the fitting issues, if you search to be a buddy to God, to be near God, to ‑‑ like Paul says, I wish to know Christ, not simply learn about him ‑‑ to know him, after which issues ‑‑ boy, issues open up for us as a result of, you recognize, what’s fascinating is Previous Testomony characters would pray issues that we’d not pray. I imply, they mentioned issues to God which might be ‑‑ Jeremiah’s my favourite. I’ll by no means write a commentary as a result of I’m not that good, but when I ever did on Jeremiah, it might be entitled “The Moody Prophet,” as a result of I’m telling you, the man would have been identified with bipolar dysfunction if it was right this moment. I imply, he’s up and down. “The steadfast love of the Lord by no means ceases,” proper? However then he additionally writes, in Jeremiah, “You, O Lord, are like an unreliable stream that, once I go to drink, you permit me dry,” in essence. I imply, how might he say that to God? And God doesn’t rebuke him. Elijah simply lays it out to God how he feels. God doesn’t rebuke him, as a result of you recognize what? He’s our Father. And when my children got here ‑‑ even once they have been mad at me, so long as they weren’t disrespectful, I care what they really feel, proper? I wish to hear it. However we don’t see it that approach. We don’t see it via these eyes of relationship, and I believe it trickles down and impacts every thing else we see or don’t see.
WES: I believe that’s a good way to type of sofa it, between faith and relationship, that there’s a religion of faith that’s only a matter of let me get the entire information straight and let me work out what the entire issues are that I imagine and simply get all of these issues straight in my thoughts, after which there’s a religion of relationship that claims, “I belief you to do the fitting factor, to do the most effective factor, to do the nice factor even once I don’t know what that’s, and even once I don’t know when that’s going to come back to go.” That’s what Hebrews is all about. I imply, there’s a lot for all of us ‑‑ in each period of our life, in each period of human historical past and the historical past of God’s individuals, there was a lot ambiguity and simply lack of understanding of what’s gonna occur and why am I going via this and what does the longer term maintain? However religion is seeing past what’s seen and trusting in him and saying, “I don’t know what God goes to do or when he’s going to do it, however I do know he’s going to do what is sweet and what’s proper, and I do know that he’s going to maintain his guarantees.” And with that, we might be snug, for lack of a greater phrase, within the uncomfortable. We might be content material with the ache, with the struggling, as a result of we all know, in the long run, that is the best way every thing’s going to work out.
KERRY: Completely. I imply, simply look at someday ‑‑ and I do know you have got, however in your listeners, look at someday struggling within the New Testomony and the way it’s considered. “Contemplate it pure pleasure if you face trials and temptations of all kinds.” I’ve by no means seen anyone do this, ever, in 30‑plus years of preaching. I’ve by no means seen anyone stroll the aisle glad and say, “I’m going via this actually onerous factor. I simply wish to thank the Lord.” By no means. I imply, that’s not the one passage that talks about it. Philippians chapter 1, “For it’s been appointed to you not solely to imagine in him, but in addition to undergo for his sake.” I wish to know Christ and the ability of his resurrection and to share in his struggling. “Blessed are those that are persecuted for righteousness’ sake.” “Blessed are these, you recognize, once they revile and persecute you and converse all method of evil towards you falsely, however rejoice and be exceedingly glad.” I imply, in non secular warfare, struggling is sort of a medal of honor. It issues. Why do you assume he says “Be devoted unto demise”? That doesn’t imply until you develop previous and die. “Be devoted unto demise and also you’ll obtain a crown of life.” “No better love hath any man than this, that he’ll lay down his life for his associates.” “You might be my associates when you do what I command you.”
All of that stuff is saying that how we see it’s so very important. And these things has affected so many issues since you ‑‑ I imply, I assume that might be true for you, too. Individuals don’t see struggling ‑‑ and I don’t see struggling that approach but, however I wish to. I’m attempting to. Actually, when ‑‑ I used to be simply in a automotive accident this weekend. It was sort of scary, and I ‑‑ certainly I prayed to the Lord, thanked him that it wasn’t worse than it was and I wasn’t harm and all that, however I wish to categorical to him, additionally, thanks for trials and issue in order that I can ‑‑ as a result of, Lord, when issues are onerous, I can present you the way a lot I like you and that you simply’re first to me, and that actually is what life is all about. It’s selection. Him or ourselves. Him or the world.
WES: Yeah. Nicely, and I believe that even these acts of rejoicing in religion after we encounter numerous trials, that, in and of itself, is an act of non secular warfare, the place we’re pushing again, we’re combating towards what’s seen and we’re saying there’s extra to this than what might be seen. There’s greater than what might be felt. And we’re not denying the ache and that it’s really dangerous, that these painful issues are literally dangerous, however we’re saying that ‑‑ by rejoicing in them, we’re saying God is greater, God is larger, God may even redeem this example. And it’s an act of religion, an act of non secular warfare to push again towards these issues. I believe even about ‑‑ to sort of wrap this up and return to the place we began, that it’s even in loving our enemies, in loving the individuals who place themselves towards us, the human beings, the flesh and blood, that after we love them, that, in and of itself, is participating in non secular warfare. After we love them, we’re heaping burning coals on their head.
So let me simply ask this as we sort of wrap up, that I believe there’s a distinction ‑‑ and I wish to see when you assume there’s a distinction ‑‑ between destroying arguments and being argumentative, as a result of typically I believe we learn 2nd Corinthians 10 and we learn, oh, sure, we’re imagined to destroy arguments, and we type of pat ourselves on the again for, quote‑unquote, proudly owning the opposite particular person or dunking on them or scoring factors towards them, and we’re simply being argumentative slightly than really destroying the arguments, slightly than successful them to Christ and serving to them to be liberated from the enslavement that they’re struggling.
KERRY: Oh, yeah. Nicely, one of many issues that’s sort of an incredible instance of how we misunderstand this typically is our use of the time period ‑‑ properly, a few of our use. I imply, I wouldn’t say everyone does this, however typically, within the church, individuals discuss with “false educating,” and also you’ve in all probability been referred to as a false trainer; I’ve been referred to as a false trainer. I imply, it will depend on the place you might be on any topic; there’s any individual to the fitting of you that’s going to assume you’re a false trainer. However what I’ve discovered to be so fascinating about that’s that individuals make that software to of us exterior the church. They’re not false academics. That subject ‑‑ that title is reserved in scripture, but it surely’s not even reserved to individuals who train issues which might be false. I imply, have you ever ever achieved that? I imply, I’ve modified via the years large time, proper? Does that imply I used to be a false trainer? It may well’t imply that, proper? However there’s an fascinating factor if you dive into each occasion the place you have got a Diotrephes, or no matter, in scripture. There’s at all times one connecting idea, and it reads one thing like this, “For his or her God is their very own stomach.” It’s not speaking about an individual who’s educating one thing false mistakenly. It’s speaking about an individual who is aware of they’re educating one thing false and are doing it for their very own egocentric ambition and acquire, which is a really small group of individuals, proper?
I imply, however but we take and we really feel like victors as a result of we blast any individual into subsequent week as a result of they don’t see it the best way we imagine the scriptures train, and that ‑‑ we don’t see that perspective ‑‑ Jesus was actual onerous on the Pharisees as a result of they match that description very properly, however he was fairly tender with everyone else, together with Romans, together with Gentiles, together with his boneheaded disciples. I imply, he was affected person and loving. He received annoyed at occasions, however ‑‑ and that is the factor, is that Paul, the identical one who mentioned “The weapons of our warfare usually are not carnal,” he’s additionally the one that claims, “I turn out to be all issues to all males.” He mentioned I’ll compromise every thing besides the gospel, besides the reality. I’ll compromise my desires, my wishes, my very own private preferences, all of that as a result of ‑‑ you recognize, what about passages like, “If in any respect doable, stay at peace with all males”? That’s what we’re referred to as to be, however but in some way we’ve gotten this concept that being at struggle means we have now to be combative. It does. We must be combative to the satan, however to not individuals, however but so many brethren have the mindset that the fitting approach to do it’s to be combative to individuals. And are there uncommon instances the place there’s a false trainer? Certain. However by and enormous, more often than not, we simply are ‑‑ I imply, I like to consider what would persuade me if I used to be in that particular person’s footwear? What would attain me? Now, it’s gotta be ‑‑ you possibly can’t water down the reality. It’s gotta be informed. However you possibly can inform it with love in your coronary heart and with compassion in your voice and a tear in your eye, and that’s completely different than typically how individuals wish to win the argument. So I don’t know if that’s what you have been searching for, however that’s kinda how I see it.
WES: Couldn’t agree extra, Brother, and I believe that’s an incredible place to wrap up. Earlier than we shut, let me give you a chance to inform individuals the place they’ll discover out extra about Sundown or the Tahoe Encampment or something that you simply’d prefer to level individuals to.
KERRY: You guess. Nicely, initially, on the Sundown entrance, our graduate faculty, we have now two doctorate levels and we have now three completely different grasp’s levels. It’s very, very reasonably priced. You’ll be able to go to Sundown.Bible and there’s a graduate faculty web page. What we’re actually enthusiastic about is we simply began final 12 months ‑‑ that is our second annual Sermon Symposium within the Dallas/Fort Value space. It’s for anyone who desires to come back. You’ll be able to register at Sundown.Bible, after which, below “Occasions,” it’ll be proper there, and that’s June the sixth via the eighth at Lewisville Church of Christ, and we’d like to see anyone who can come be there and be part of it.
I additionally direct the Tahoe Household Encampment, as you talked about. That’s been going since 1946. It was once the Yosemite Household Encampment repeatedly aside from one 12 months, and everyone is aware of what 12 months that was, so ‑‑ however we’ve been going at Lake Tahoe from in regards to the 12 months 2000, and our dates this 12 months are June the fifteenth via the twenty first. Now we have an internet web page and a Fb web page, Tahoe Household Encampment. Yow will discover it very, very simply. So like to have y’all. Anyone who desires to be concerned, the extra the merrier.
After which I discussed the novel that I wrote. It’s out there on Amazon. It’s referred to as Angel at Conflict by Kerry Williams, and if anyone has an curiosity in that, perhaps it’ll assist to broaden our minds, so if there’s one thing there you don’t like, let me know, as a result of I’d be curious.
WES: Nicely, thanks, Brother. Thanks for this dialog and thanks in your work within the kingdom.
KERRY: God bless. Thanks a lot for having me on. Respect it.
