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Each Christian ought to see themselves as a minister and their work as a ministry.
In as we speak’s fast-paced world, it’s straightforward to compartmentalize our lives into separate spheres – work, church, household, and so forth. Nonetheless, this mindset can result in a disconnect between our religion and our each day lives, particularly within the office. Many Christians battle with the query of learn how to stay out their religion in a so-called “secular” setting. They surprise if their work has any non secular significance or if it’s merely a way to an finish. This episode of the Radically Christian Bible Examine Podcast addresses these issues and presents a contemporary perspective on the function of labor within the lifetime of a believer.
Drawing from biblical examples corresponding to Daniel and the teachings of the apostle Paul, this episode explores the idea of each Christian being a minister, no matter their occupation or office setting. It delves into the concept our work is not only a secular pursuit, however a chance for ministry and discipleship. The dialogue emphasizes the significance of viewing our work as an extension of our stroll with God, the place we are able to glorify Him, reveal our belief in Him, and stay out the mission of creating disciples.
The visitor for this episode is Rusty Tugman, a seasoned minister and management coach. After 30 years in full-time ministry, 21 because the preacher of the Alameda Church of Christ in Norman, OK, Rusty turned the Management Coach & Office Coach for the Oklahoma Division of Human Providers. He’s additionally a coach for Strata Management, a True Dads Educator, and the proprietor of Tugman Teaching & Consulting, LLC. Along with his distinctive perspective and expertise, Rusty shares useful insights on learn how to method work as a Christian and learn how to be an efficient witness in a secular setting. His journey serves as an inspiration for these searching for to combine their religion and work in a significant manner.
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Transcript (Credit score: Beth Tabor)
Welcome to the Radically Christian Bible Examine podcast. I’m your host, Wes McAdams. Right here, we’ve one aim: Be taught to like like Jesus.
Who’s a minister? Is it simply the people who find themselves financially supported by the church or is it each follower of Jesus? At the moment’s Bible research will reveal why each Christian ought to consider themselves as a minister and their office as a spot of ministry. My visitor as we speak is my pal, Rusty Tugman. Right here’s what Rusty has to say about his life and his work. He stated, “After 30 years in full‑time ministry, 21 because the preacher for the Alameda Church of Christ in Norman, Oklahoma, I turned the management coach and office coach for the Oklahoma Division of Human Providers. I’m additionally a coach for Strata Management, a TRUE Dads educator, and the proprietor of Tugman Teaching & Consulting, LLC, and I nonetheless preach, however now as a visitor preacher.” He says, “I’ve by no means left full‑time ministry, I simply modified context.”
However earlier than we get into my dialog with Rusty, I wish to learn from 1st Peter chapter 2, beginning in verse 9. Peter says, “However you’re a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a individuals for his personal possession, that you could be proclaim the excellencies of him who known as you out of darkness into his marvelous mild. As soon as you weren’t a individuals, however now you might be God’s individuals; when you had not obtained mercy, however now you’ve gotten obtained mercy. Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage warfare in opposition to your soul. Preserve your conduct among the many Gentiles honorable, in order that once they communicate in opposition to you as evildoers, they could see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation.”
I hope that you simply take pleasure in as we speak’s dialog, and I pray that it helps all of us study to like like Jesus.
WES: Rusty Tugman, welcome to the podcast, Brother.
RUSTY: Thanks, Wes, I’m honored to be on. Thanks for inviting me.
WES: Man, it’s good to have you ever. I’m actually enthusiastic about having this dialog. You and I get to hang around at Camp Blue Haven each summer season, and I’ve grown a lot out of your knowledge and from our friendship, and so I’m excited for different individuals to listen to your ideas as we speak.
RUSTY: Nicely, I admire you saying that. Yeah, I’ve had a lot enjoyable hanging out with you at Blue Haven and it’s been good to simply get to know you and develop our friendship.
WES: Likewise. So I wish to speak about ministry, and I believe after we hear that phrase “ministry,” we mechanically take into consideration individuals which might be working for a church full‑time or half‑time, and we take into consideration ministry in these phrases. Actually, one time I keep in mind I used to be preaching and I used to be speaking about how your preacher could also be a minister, however he’s not the minister, however we have a tendency to connect that time period, “the minister,” to a preacher or any individual that’s in that kind of, quote‑unquote, “full‑time ministry,” however I believe there’s a greater manner to consider that, and that’s what I wish to speak about as we speak, however possibly the easiest way to try this is you inform us about your story in ministry.
RUSTY: Yeah, completely. Nicely, and also you’re precisely proper. I imply, that’s how I’ve considered it; that’s how numerous us consider it, and so ‑‑ yeah. So lately, I’ve form of had a transition in my life that’s made me rethink all of that. And so, you realize, the pandemic modified numerous issues in our world, and it made us rethink numerous issues, together with church, what it means to be the church, how we go about doing church, so to talk. And so I keep in mind, throughout the pandemic, you realize, I’m sitting there in my good church workplace and I’m ready for the world to return to me, and I’m considering, they’re not coming to me anymore, nevertheless it additionally made me understand simply, as a preacher, how I’ve allowed myself to simply form of be swallowed up in that church bubble the place most of my interactions, you realize, had been with church members and Christians and all of these sorts of issues, and so that basically simply began to form of gnaw at me. And so I began praying and actually discerning about simply this concept that, man, I have to get on the market. I have to go to the place the world is and really stay out the Nice Fee, maybe in ways in which I haven’t earlier than. And so I began praying so much about that, and, actually, that strategy of prayer and discernment was a few 12 months‑lengthy course of.
In order I’m going by that course of, a chance got here alongside to hitch the Studying and Worker Improvement staff on the Oklahoma Division of Human Providers. And so I’ve a background in management and, by the years, I’ve completed numerous management coaching with totally different teams and nonprofits and issues like that, and it simply appeared like a very nice match and an ideal reply to this prayer that I’ve been praying, and so after about 30 years of full‑time church work, I transitioned right into a secular function, secular setting, however for the aim of ministry. And so what I inform individuals is that, you realize, I didn’t go away full‑time ministry; I simply modified context, and in order that’s form of how I view it, and it’s been fantastic. I imply, I’m capable of have conversations with those who I’d by no means have crossed paths with. I’m capable of have an viewers with those who I’d by no means have had an viewers with earlier than, and the ministry alternatives simply have been superb.
And so what I do there may be I do management coaching and training for his or her supervisors, managers, and executives, and it’s a company of about 6,200 workers, so lots of people, and, the truth is, I’m proper now engaged on simply growing an inner teaching program there. And so numerous nice alternatives, nevertheless it positively simply has shaken up my world, nevertheless it’s simply actually prompted me to rethink our method to work, to ministry. Such as you stated, who’s a minister? What does that appear to be in the true world?
WES: Yeah. Nicely, I take into consideration what Paul says in Ephesians 4. He’s speaking about Jesus giving items to the church and, particularly, the items that he offers are apostles and evangelists, however he says, about shepherds and lecturers, that their job is to equip the saints for the work of ministry, that each saint, each Christian needs to be a minister and that it’s the job of the church employees to equip the members, to equip the saints, the Christians, the disciples for that work of ministry. And, I imply, I believe it could change the way in which that we take into consideration so many issues. I believe it could change the idea we’ve of the church, like what’s the church? We regularly pay lip service to the concept we’re the church, the individuals are the church, however we’ve this very institutionalized mind-set in regards to the church.
I keep in mind one time I used to be on social media and somebody was, you realize, asking for assist, needing assist with one thing. I don’t know if it was monetary or needing any individual to do one thing for them, and one of many members of our congregation commented and stated, “You need to ask the church and see in the event that they might help.” And I assumed, what a bizarre option to say that, as a result of you’re the church. What she meant was ask the individuals in management to see if the church collectively might help you, however she was eradicating herself from that equation, and that’s so typically what we do. We take into consideration the individuals which might be financially supported, or the individuals which might be in management roles, these are the ministers, these are the individuals which might be working the ‑‑ you realize, I don’t understand how we even conceptualize it, however we take ourselves ‑‑ the members take themselves out of the equation and so they consider the church as this enterprise or this group that they financially assist, nevertheless it’s the enterprise or group that’s doing these items.
RUSTY: Yeah, that’s proper. And that mind-set, it additionally causes us to separate out our lives into church and work and that these are fully various things, and there’s numerous hazard in that, I believe. And I believe we miss numerous alternatives that God is placing in our path to be the arms and toes of Jesus, to inform others about Jesus, to assist disciple others and to make disciples due to that mind-set.
WES: I don’t wish to go down a rabbit path with the cash facet of issues, however I believe it even goes into the way in which that we take into consideration church funds. Like we regularly say that is God’s cash, and I’m like, you realize what? The cash in your pocket can be God’s cash. The cash in your checking account can be God’s cash. And sure, that is cash that we put within the assortment plate or that we give to the collective church. We’re sharing these funds and we’re doing one thing collectively with these, and so there’s a place, I believe, for individuals in, quote‑unquote, “church work.” I like the way in which you stated that. There’s a place for that, that every one the members collectively share their funds to assist this individual’s work and their ministry, however we are able to’t ‑‑ the individual within the pew can’t take away themselves from that course of and begin to assume that, “Nicely, I gave my cash, so now it’s his job. It’s their job to do these items.” They must see that this can be a cooperative work that we’re doing, not simply in financially supporting one thing, however, such as you stated, each single day after we go to work, we’re on mission for God. We’re a part of ‑‑ we’re the church. You’re the church, whether or not it’s Sunday or Monday or Tuesday or Wednesday, and whether or not you’re within the constructing otherwise you’re out in the neighborhood.
RUSTY: Yeah, that’s completely proper. And so once I was making this transition ‑‑ and by the way in which, I’m so grateful that I’ve been capable of be a full‑time minister and have many years of service in that manner. And I nonetheless preach. You understand, I visitor preach and interim preaching and issues like that, so I nonetheless get to scratch that itch just a little bit, however I’m so grateful that I had that. However this has been so rejuvenating for me and has actually helped me to see issues in so much larger manner. And so, for instance, I take into consideration ‑‑ as a result of I had to consider ‑‑ simply rethink work, okay, as a result of I’m leaving all I’ve identified. I imply, all I’ve ever labored at, up till this level, has been in church. I imply, even from a younger age, I used to be doing internships and all of that, so almost my entire working life has been in a church setting. And so now, transitioning out of that, I actually needed to rethink, okay, what is figure? What’s it about? How does this match into what God has known as me to do?
And so, in my research of that, I went to a few locations, and that is simply form of attending to that divide that you simply’ve spoken of that we form of generally take into consideration, that form of ‑‑ you realize, church, nicely, that’s ministry; work over right here just isn’t. However that’s not supported by scripture. So I take into consideration like Romans 12:1, you realize, the place Paul tells us to current our entire selves as dwelling sacrifices, that that is actually what worship is about. And in that context, you realize, what he’s saying is that our correct response to our Creator is the shaping of our whole lives by God’s gracious will, and so there’s no separation there. There’s no compartmentalization, that each space of our life is to be shaped by and formed by the grace of God. However then I believe a clearer image of that and the way work suits into life is within the creation narrative. And, you realize, I believe lots of people, we take a look at work and we expect that it’s simply form of this crucial evil, you realize? We form of have this love/hate relationship with work. And I keep in mind, as a child rising up in rural Oklahoma, my dad making me get out and work on our land, and, particularly throughout the scorching summers, I might have sworn, at the moment in my life, that work was from the satan. And that’s numerous occasions how we see work, is that, nicely, it should be a product of the autumn and the curse in that work was borne out of the brokenness of sin. However whenever you return and take a look at the creation narrative, work is definitely borne out of God’s blessing, not sin’s brokenness, as a result of in Genesis 1 and a pair of, work is given earlier than the autumn, and so ‑‑ however, additionally, work, in that narrative, it’s given for human flourishing, that this can be a good factor, and it’s good for us.
And so once I take a look at work by the creation narrative, by Romans 12:1 ‑‑ in fact there’s different passages that we might cite and take a look at, however once I take a look at work by that lens, I wish to embrace work as a present from God that’s good for me ‑‑ it’s good for me to work; work is sweet for me ‑‑ however, additionally, I wish to method work as simply an extension of my stroll with God, and once I try this, now, work turns into one thing totally different. It really turns into extra thrilling as a result of if I put work in that perspective and take a look at it by that lens, nicely, now, work is a pathway for me to glorify and honor God. It’s an enviornment the place I reveal my belief in God and my allegiance to God, however, additionally, it’s a mission subject the place I can stay out the disciple‑making mission that we’ve been given. Nicely, now, work is not only this mundane factor that I’ve to do to pay the payments. It’s thrilling, and there’s so many alternatives that include work to be on mission for God.
And an ideal instance of that is, a number of years in the past, I obtained to be a part of a small group of preachers who had a gathering with Shodankeh Johnson, who does numerous work with the Renew Community, and he’s a disciple‑maker in Sierra Leone, leads a disciple‑making motion, however he’s been to America many, many occasions. And he was speaking to us about simply our proclivity, as Individuals, to all the time introduce ourselves by what we do for a dwelling, you realize? Or we’ll even ask, you realize, “What do you do for a dwelling?” After which we reply by actually saying what we do for a dwelling. He stated if you happen to had been to return to Sierra Leone, if you happen to had been to ask the members of our congregation that query, “What do you do for a dwelling,” he stated almost all of them would reply in the identical manner and they might reply by first saying, “I’m a disciple‑maker who…” So “I’m a disciple‑maker who drives a taxi.” “I’m a disciple‑maker who’s a physician.” “I’m a disciple‑maker who works in a manufacturing facility.” “I’m a disciple‑maker who’s a baker.” And, man, I simply keep in mind all of us preachers who had been there, we had been simply blown away, and I assumed, that’s it. That’s what I wish to do. That’s how I wish to method work, as a result of I believe that’s how scripture approaches work.
WES: I keep in mind listening to a lesson one time ‑‑ I used to be most likely in highschool ‑‑ similar to the image you simply painted, and the preacher stated one thing that shocked me, and he meant for it to be provocative. He stated, “You may’t be a Christian and a physician. You may’t be a Christian and a policeman. You may’t be a Christian and a rubbish man.” And we’re like, why is he saying that? After which he stated, “You must be a Christian physician, a Christian policeman, a Christian rubbish collector, that your Christianity, your discipleship needs to be a part of that.” However I really like that concept, what you simply stated, taking that even additional, that it isn’t simply that I’m being a disciple of Jesus whereas I’m on this profession or whereas I’m within the office, however that I’m really being a disciple‑maker and that I’m really making an attempt to make disciples whereas I’m doing the job that I’m doing.
So I really like your ideas round Daniel and the way Daniel offers us a sample and an image for being on mission for God whereas we’re within the office. Discuss to us about that just a little bit.
RUSTY: Yeah. I really like the story of Daniel, and Daniel has been clearly an inspiration, you realize, for 1000’s and 1000’s of years to Christ followers. And in order I used to be making this transition from full‑time church ministry to now going to work in a very totally different setting, totally different function, all of that, I actually wished to enter that in a purposeful manner, and so I turned to Daniel simply to form of study some classes, as a result of Daniel, he’s in a international land. Nicely, I used to be going into an setting that was very international to me. However Daniel did that in such a God‑honoring manner, and that’s precisely what I wished to do, and so I turned to Daniel for some classes, and, man, I realized a lot. And one of many first issues that stood out to me once I simply went again to his story and began studying it and learning it’s that God will put us in secular environments and that’s okay as a result of there’s a goal for us being there. And generally I believe, you realize, we lament the place we’re at, and after we do, we miss the aim that God might have for us to be there. I’m positive Daniel didn’t wish to be the place he was. You understand, not one of the Israelites did, however God positioned them there, however he additionally had a selected goal for them, had a selected calling for them in that context, and a mission to satisfy. And Daniel is only a nice instance of simply embracing that calling, embracing that mission, and embracing even the place he was. And so his location didn’t change his allegiance to God, and though he’s in a international kingdom and ultimately serving a international king, his allegiance is all the time to God. Nicely, how did he try this? And that’s what I wished to determine.
And so once I checked out Daniel, a number of issues stood out to me, and I believe one is that Daniel, he was commendable. You understand, on the very starting of his story, he and some others, they’re chosen and, you realize, some variations really use the phrase “counseled” or “commendable” due to his talents, but in addition due to his excellent character. And so I believe, you realize, as Christians within the office, I wish to be commendable, not within the sense of, you realize, I need reward to be heaped on me. However being commendable in our talents, but in addition in our character, it makes us stand out, however we’re standing out to carry glory to God. And so what that helped me to do is it helped me to appreciate that the best factor that I can carry into this office that I’m entering into just isn’t my levels, nevertheless it’s my character. And I believe that’s true for all of us, that numerous us ‑‑ I imply, man, we carry so many ‑‑ you realize, training, expertise, and all of that, however don’t underestimate the facility and the contribution of your character as a Christian within the office. And in order that’s what Daniel introduced, and so he was commendable.
I additionally assume, too, simply in Daniel’s story, is that he was competent. He was good at what he did. And also you consider Daniel’s perspective, it appears to me that Daniel form of had this mentality that he wished to do glorious work with a view to reward a wonderful God. And I believe, wow, that’s an ideal perspective for us to have, is we must wish to be good at our jobs, be competent. And so one of many ways in which I can stay out my religion in a secular work setting is to be a very good worker, you realize, to be accountable, to be reliable, to be reliable. You understand, I wish to be that worker that my boss doesn’t have to fret about as a result of, you realize, she or he can belief me, and I wish to do good work as an extension of my service to a very good God. If you happen to’re a boss, be a very good boss and deal with your workers nicely. Care about your workers, have compassion on them, have empathy for them. So be competent; be good at what you do. And I believe generally we expect that, nicely, you realize, for us to say we’re good at this or that or no matter, that that feels just a little egocentric, and so we’re not boasting, however we’re saying, hey, I wish to be good as a result of that is an extension of my stroll with God. You understand, identical to what Paul says in Colossians 3:17, you realize, do the whole lot within the identify of Christ. So if I’m to take that actually, then I wish to be good at my job. I wish to do good work and make good contributions.
You understand, I additionally see within the story of Daniel that, you realize, he was convicted. I imply, we see that every one all through his story. And in a secular setting, you’re going to be tempted to compromise your values, your beliefs, your requirements. Daniel was positioned in so many various conditions the place he might have been tempted to compromise, however, additionally, whenever you take a look at Daniel’s story, Daniel had enemies, and so Daniel had individuals who had been actively working in opposition to him due to his religion. Nicely, we might encounter that, as nicely, in a secular work setting. There could also be individuals who actively work in opposition to us and attempt to sabotage us or undermine us due to our religion and our allegiance to Christ, however by all of that, Daniel stayed true to his convictions.
After which I additionally simply take into consideration, to me, Daniel teaches me to be Christ. And I do know Daniel’s story comes earlier than the incarnation of Christ, however I take into consideration like in Matthew 25, you realize, when Jesus is saying ‑‑ you realize, speaking about how whenever you give meals, you give shelter, you go to me, that we’re doing it for him, and so, I believe, be Christ by serving others. And Daniel, he served; he did it within the identify of God for the glory of God. And what’s attention-grabbing is that a number of occasions in Daniel’s story Nebuchadnezzar confesses that Daniel’s God is the true God of gods and Lord of lords, and it’s as a result of Daniel, by his character, by his competency, by the power of his convictions, he made God identified to Nebuchadnezzar and others, and so they noticed God due to Daniel. Nicely, that’s precisely why God has the Israelites in Babylon, is in order that they’ll present God, and that’s what Daniel does. And so I simply thought his story and the way in which he approaches work as a real mission, man, that was so inspiring to me, and it actually helped me to craft the way in which that I wish to method work in a secular setting.
WES: Man, I really like that, and I can see that sample that you simply laid out. I see that sample not solely in Daniel’s life, however even in what Paul taught the primary‑century church, the way in which that he taught them to stay when he was speaking to slave masters or to slaves and telling them learn how to stay out their religion throughout the context of these relationships, or husbands and wives and youngsters, and in all of these contexts, that is the way in which you reside out your religion. And a lot of it was as a result of he knew, not just for their very own sake, however for the sake of their affect, that they had been going to be influencing different individuals, that folks had been going to attract conclusions about what kind of individuals are these Jesus followers, what kind of individuals are these based mostly on the way in which that they stay their lives.
And I used to be occupied with the truth that the world was turned the wrong way up, not primarily by church employees, those who had been supported by native congregations to evangelise messages on Sunday; the world was turned the wrong way up by unusual, on a regular basis disciples, followers of Jesus dwelling out their religion, being Christian bakers and Christian blacksmiths and Christian no matter ‑‑ Christian wives and Christian kids and Christian fathers and dwelling out their religion in all of those contexts, and it modified the world. It turned the world the wrong way up by individuals dwelling this out in on a regular basis life.
RUSTY: That’s proper, and other people discover that. And so I’ll simply provide you with a few examples. Considered one of my favourite tales to date is that ‑‑ so there was an individual that I’m working with on this secular job, on this secular setting, and he knew my background as a preacher, and so he felt compelled to inform me that he was an atheist, and it’s like, okay, you realize. However anyhow, we labored collectively, and labored collectively rather well, and, you realize, hit it off and had a very good connection and all of that. So at one level he involves me and he needs to find out about forgiveness, and so he requested me about forgiveness. Nicely, you realize, what I do know of forgiveness is how scripture teaches forgiveness, so I start to form of educate a lesson, so to talk, you realize, the Christian customary of forgiveness and the way Christianity defines forgiveness, issues like that. So we’re speaking about forgiveness. So anyway, I’m simply considering, okay, he was simply on this matter and we had an ideal dialog and all that. A few months go by. He reaches out to me and he says, “Hey, do you’ve gotten time for a fast name?” And we use Microsoft Groups, so a video name, and “Do you’ve gotten time for a fast Groups name?” I’m like, “Certain.” So anyway, I get on this name and he says, “Hey, I simply wished to share one thing with you,” and stated, “It’s fairly thrilling to me. I couldn’t wait to share it with you.” I stated, “Okay, yeah, what’s occurring?” And he stated, “Nicely, I simply wished you to know that I used to be capable of forgive my mom.” And he had had some points and issues, you realize, by childhood and all, and I stated, “Wow, that’s big. Inform me about it.” And so he’s simply telling me in regards to the expertise, and you would simply see that this big weight had been lifted off of him. And he stated, “You understand, I by no means would have been in a position to try this if it hadn’t been for our dialog about forgiveness.” And, I imply, I’m simply, you realize ‑‑ sorry, I’m getting teared up occupied with it as a result of I’m sitting there considering, nicely, we’re simply having ‑‑ he’s simply within the matter of forgiveness, and I had no clue that every one this different stuff is occurring in his background and in his life.
And so when he calls and says that, it was simply a kind of moments the place you simply go, okay, that is what I ‑‑ I’m the place I have to be, and that’s to not pat myself on the again, nevertheless it’s simply to say precisely what you stated. The affect that we are able to have as Christ followers for the aim of Christ is unimaginable if we are going to take the mission of Christ critically, and as an alternative of compartmentalizing our lives between church and work, however see that it’s all collectively, we’ve alternatives like this on a regular basis. I’ve individuals at a state authorities company ‑‑ possibly I shouldn’t be saying this on a podcast, I don’t know ‑‑ who name me and simply ask me to hope for them. Nicely, I’m not promoting that or I don’t have some signal that claims, hey, if you happen to want prayer, name. It’s simply they’re seeing Christ and so they’re responding to that. And, once more, that’s not highlighting myself, nevertheless it’s to say that God will put us in secular environments for this precise goal, to point out Christ. And after we elevate up Christ, he does precisely what he promised he would do. He attracts individuals to himself if we, his followers, will elevate him up.
WES: Yeah, yeah, completely. I used to be considering ‑‑ I don’t know that we outlined the phrase “minister” earlier, however, I imply, it simply means to serve. To minister to individuals is to serve individuals, and if we see ‑‑ if each single one among us ‑‑ I’m in full‑time church work and my work is a ministry, however so is your work a ministry, and so is the work of our sister who works on the entrance desk on the church constructing. Her work is a ministry, and so is the one that works on the authorities company and the one that works on the faculty. Their work is a ministry and so they’re serving individuals, not simply to serve them ‑‑ anyone can serve ‑‑ however as you stated, serving within the identify of Jesus, and that service within the identify of Jesus, it attracts individuals to Jesus. I believe, so typically, after we take into consideration our work, particularly, quote‑unquote, “secular work,” and we divide it, we simply are attempting to get by it and we’re simply making an attempt to maintain our head above water and simply get by it and transfer on to issues which might be extra vital, whereas if we actually adopted this mind-set that you simply’re selling, that I believe scripture promotes, is seeing our work as a ministry to succeed in and affect different individuals. So what recommendation would you’ve gotten for those who actually wish to attain their neighbors, they wish to attain their co‑employees, however they’re probably not positive learn how to go about that within the office?
RUSTY: Yeah. Nicely, and earlier than I reply that, I simply wish to return to one thing you talked about, that ‑‑ you realize, earlier you had been speaking about how generally we consider the minister as ‑‑ we form of go away all of it to at least one individual, you realize, and all that. However what you simply described, if we’re really doing that, take into consideration the attain that we might have because the church, that if we’re not simply placing this on the shoulders of 1 individual or one specialised group of paid ministers, however as an alternative, each Christ follower is seeing that they’ve a mission to stay out of their totally different contexts, now consider all of the those who we’re capable of attain for the reason for Christ, as a result of, you realize, I imply, you’ll attain those who I’ll by no means have the chance to fulfill or speak to, you realize? I’ll attain individuals that you simply’ll by no means have the chance to fulfill and speak to. But when we’re each doing that, now, unexpectedly, the dominion is increasing, you realize, and so I simply take into consideration simply the probabilities of what you described, and, to me, that’s so thrilling. And I believe it’s thrilling to be a part of the reason for Christ and to see that I could be a part of it in my work, that I don’t have to depart what I’ve identified and go ‑‑ I could be a part of the reason for Christ proper the place I’m at, and that’s actually thrilling to me.
However to get to your query about simply, you realize, how will we attain individuals in our work environments ‑‑ so I take into consideration, once more, the story of Daniel. You understand, that’s half of a bigger story so that you consider one among Daniel’s contemporaries, Jeremiah. Take into consideration what God says to the Israelites in Jeremiah 29, the place he says, you realize, “I’ve a plan for you.” He’s put them on this secular setting, however he has a goal for them, and so he tells them to work, to marry, to have kids, to stay their lives, however he additionally tells them to hunt the welfare of the town the place they’ve gone as a result of they’ll profit from that, too, after which he additionally tells them to hope for the welfare of the town the place they’ve been positioned. And so, if I take that and put it in my context, nicely, then it tells me a few issues. It teaches me just a few issues about how I can attain individuals in my setting or be on mission in my secular office.
And so one is, I believe, simply settle for the task. You understand, I imply, in Jeremiah 29, God’s given the Israelites an task. Okay, you’re on this international place. You’re on this secular kingdom, however God has given them an task to stay out whereas they’re there. In order that’s the very first thing, is I’ve obtained to just accept the task that God has given me as a Christ follower. That task is true for us regardless of the place we’re, it doesn’t matter what we do for a dwelling, and it actually form of goes to our id, that being that disciple‑maker ‑‑ you realize, that’s what I really like about that story with Shodankeh Johnson, you realize, “I’m a disciple‑maker who…” as a result of what they’re doing is that they’re figuring out themselves first as a disciple‑maker, then, secondarily, I do that to make a dwelling. Okay. So I settle for the task, and so I’m going to be on mission for Christ.
So, once more, simply going from Jeremiah 29, nicely, if I put that in my context, then I wish to be a part of the staff, and that’s what God tells the Israelites. Be a part of the neighborhood. Don’t separate your self off, make your self this personal little clique. He’s saying be a part of the neighborhood, be a part of the town. So I wish to be a part of the staff; I wish to be with the staff, you realize, I wish to be alongside the staff. And so be a part of the staff that you simply work with at work, but in addition be a blessing to the staff. That’s what God was telling the Israelites to do. Be a supply of blessing to the individuals that you simply’re round and within the metropolis you reside in. And so, you realize, in work, okay, how can I be a blessing to the individuals I work with and to the staff I’m on? And I take into consideration that by way of how do I add worth? What worth can I add to this staff?
After which additionally pray to your staff. So simply as God advised the Israelites to hope for the welfare of the town, I wish to pray for my staff. I wish to pray for his or her welfare. And I do; I pray for my staff by identify, and I pray for the issues that they’ve occurring of their lives. However then, additionally, you realize, we see God telling them to all the time be on God’s staff. Okay, yeah, you’re a part of this neighborhood, I need you to be a part of this neighborhood, I need you to be a blessing to them, however do not forget that we’re all the time on God’s staff.
And so I believe if we are able to maintain these classes in thoughts, once more, it helps us to method work. So, for instance, like being a part of the staff and issues like that, nicely, you realize, there’s some way of life decisions that a few of my teammates make that I’d not approve of, you realize, scripture doesn’t approve of these sorts of issues, however I nonetheless wish to be a part of that staff as a result of I can’t have affect if I simply separate myself from that individual or these individuals. I wish to be a part of the staff. I don’t wish to undertake their requirements or their existence or their beliefs or their values, however I nonetheless wish to be amongst them and be a part of them in order that I could be an affect of their lives. You understand, that story I advised in regards to the forgiveness, nicely, that will ‑‑ you realize, like I stated, he described himself as an atheist. Nicely, I’d by no means have had that chance to have some form of affect if I had simply stated, “Oh, nicely, you’re an atheist, then neglect it. I can’t be a part of you.” You understand, God says, hey, be a part of the neighborhood. So I believe it’s vital for us to actually perceive that, however, once more, we’re there for a goal, so all the time be on mission for God.
WES: I adore it. It’s such sensible recommendation. I believe we might be remiss if we didn’t finish with possibly mentioning a few of the risks, the pitfalls, the obstacles that we face. The examples that you simply’ve used about Daniel after which Jeremiah, they’re written to and written about individuals in exile, individuals which might be, in a way, behind enemy strains, and we do want to acknowledge that we’re in exile. That doesn’t imply, as you stated, that we withdraw and we’ve nothing to do with the individuals and say, “Nicely, we’re Christians and we’ve to be separate.” That’s what the Pharisees did. They had been separatists. They didn’t wish to have something to do with those who weren’t like them. So we do wish to be on the staff, however there are additionally some risks whenever you’re dwelling in exile, whenever you’re dwelling as God’s individuals in a international land, so assist us to see a few of the risks we would look out for.
RUSTY: Yeah. Yeah, and I’m glad you introduced this up since you’re precisely proper, and we’ve to concentrate on that. And, you realize, that’s one of many issues that scripture even encourages us to do, is we have to be smart and discerning of the environment and other people which might be round us and issues like that. There are some actual risks. You understand, I take into consideration like in Daniel’s story ‑‑ nicely, a part of the hazard that he needed to face was that he had individuals actively working in opposition to him. Which will very nicely be one of many risks that a few of us face as Christ followers, you realize, and so we might face some totally different threats, even feeling like we’re form of being ostracized at work due to our religion and our beliefs and issues like that. So there are some actual risks that we’ve to concentrate on, however I believe one of many greatest risks is idolatry. I imply, as we all know in scripture, I imply, that is form of the foundational sin working all through the narrative of scripture. And you consider idolatry, it’s ‑‑ you realize, in a easy time period or easy manner, it’s actually placing one thing above God or trying to one thing or somebody as an alternative of God for that means and success, for consolation, even, for power, issues like that. So it’s changing God with one thing, and in order that signifies that even good issues can turn out to be idols. And so work is an efficient factor, however even work can turn out to be an idol as a result of I could make work the supply of my id, the supply of my success, the supply of my that means in life, and change God with work, and so I believe we’ve to be actually involved in regards to the risks of idolatry within the office.
And there’s a number of, however three that I’ve discovered and that I’ve form of encountered on this transition of mine is ‑‑ I imply, I assume, 4, as a result of, like I discussed, work itself can turn out to be an idol. However I believe one office idol that we have to be actually aware of is the idol of success, and that is the place we root our id in our efficiency quite than in Christ or in God, and, man, that’s so tempting, you realize, as a result of we wish to be good at our jobs, we wish to be acknowledged as being good, we wish to achieve success. I imply, you realize, even once I was a full‑time preacher, I nonetheless had that draw. I wish to achieve success; I wish to do good issues and good work and issues like that. The identical is true in a secular setting, and so it’s actually intoxicating, you realize, to chase success, and so that may be an actual hazard as a result of, now, if that’s the place I’m getting my validation is in my achievements and recognitions and awards, nicely, now, you realize, I’m subtly ‑‑ generally not so subtly, however I’m subtly getting off the Jesus path and I get off mission and now I turn out to be self‑serving quite than God‑serving. So I believe success is a kind of.
I believe cash, clearly, is an enormous‑time idol that we’ve to watch out about. However what’s attention-grabbing is ‑‑ and there’s every kind of research and analysis about this ‑‑ is that cash can be a kind of examples of idols all the time overpromise and beneath‑ship, as a result of there’s a ton of analysis that exhibits that cash doesn’t accomplish what we expect it is going to accomplish in our lives, and but cash could be a massive idol.
And I additionally assume becoming in is a office hazard that may turn out to be an idol, and, to me, the problem there may be, you realize, am I making an attempt to please individuals greater than I’m making an attempt to please Christ? What am I doing? What’s actually on the coronary heart of my ambition right here? And the rationale I consider these three issues is as a result of, in a secular office setting, these are form of the metrics that you simply measure your self by, is how profitable are you by way of titles, promotion, all of these issues? How a lot cash you make is form of the image of your value, and your worth is how a lot cash you make, after which simply becoming in and networking and being identified. Man, that’s how individuals in a secular work setting are measuring themselves.
And so I believe we’ve to watch out at not falling, ourselves, into these traps, and, once more, that may be very easy to do. And so I take into consideration, simply by way of success, we’ve obtained to ‑‑ our customary of success needs to be faithfulness. Am I being trustworthy? You understand, I take into consideration like Isaiah and Jeremiah. You understand, they’re advised to be these messengers for God, but when we had been to measure their success by the requirements we measure preachers as we speak, they’d be depressing failures, however they’re not failures as a result of their measurement of success was they had been trustworthy. They had been trustworthy to the duty that God gave them. And in order that’s how I wish to measure myself. Am I trustworthy to the duty God has given me to hold out on this secular work setting? And if I can keep targeted on that, it may assist me to not fall prey to those risks of those office idols.
WES: Yeah. Oh, that’s so useful as a result of I believe that ‑‑ at the same time as we had been speaking in regards to the thought of being on mission for God and doing this for Jesus and being within the office for the Lord and for affect and being a constructive impression and ministering to different individuals, I believe generally we are able to idiot ourselves into considering that’s what we’re doing after we’re actually stoking our personal ego, after we’re actually doing issues for egocentric, idolatrous causes, and we’re telling ourselves, oh, no, no, that is for the Lord, and I wish to be within the in‑group in order that I can affect them, and I need a greater place as a result of the higher place I’ve, the extra individuals I’ll be capable of affect and attain for the Lord. And we inform ourselves that we’re doing it for the Lord, however, in actuality, there’s an ulterior motive, and that’s why I believe that there’s a lot worth in quiet time, in research of scripture, in prayer, in being introspective, as a result of we’ve to look at our personal motives and ask ourselves ‑‑ I really like the query you come again to, faithfulness. Am I being trustworthy? And if I’m, then I’m successful. And the liberty, the freedom, the enjoyment of realizing that I is probably not the very best‑paid worker right here, I may not be essentially the most nicely‑favored individual right here, I may not be the individual with essentially the most prestigious job or workplace, however I’m being trustworthy to Jesus, and that’s what actually issues.
RUSTY: Completely proper. And such as you stated, that’s one thing that requires fixed introspection and examination. And so one of many issues that I do exactly as a easy thought is ‑‑ so I’ve written out for myself what I name a workday startup prayer and a workday shutdown prayer. And so, I’m form of an organized man, however what that helps me to do is ‑‑ so I start my workday with this similar prayer, however I’ve written some particular issues in that prayer that I wish to be aware of as a result of it’s serving to me to begin my workday remembering what my actual goal is, the place my id comes from, that I wish to be an instrument of peace and an envoy of Christ on this place. After which I finish my workday ‑‑ form of a option to simply form of flip my mind off from work, you realize, is I finish my workday with one other prayer that, once more, helps me to simply form of consider, okay, was I trustworthy as we speak? You understand, was I a very good ambassador of Christ as we speak?
And so I believe, simply as followers of Christ in these secular environments going through these actual risks, we’ve obtained to place some issues into the routines of our day which might be serving to us to remain on activity, serving to us to remain on mission and that comes with a few of that introspection and examination, as a result of if I’m not doing that, it may be really easy for me to get sucked into measuring success in a cosmopolitan manner and all of these sorts of issues. So I believe the purpose you made is de facto good, and I believe we have to simply undertake some disciplines and form of rituals, so to talk, that assist us to remain on activity.
WES: I really like that. I really like the truth that you used the phrase “rituals,” that there are spiritual rituals that needs to be a part of our, quote‑unquote, “secular work.” And, actually, we maintain utilizing that time period “secular” as a result of we’d like kind of a deal with to speak about it, nevertheless it actually isn’t secular. For believers, it’s spiritual work. The work that you simply’re doing now’s simply as spiritual, simply as non secular because the work you had been doing earlier than. It’s simply as a lot ministry. Actually, Peter calls each believer a part of the royal priesthood, that we’re being clergymen, whether or not you’re a person, whether or not you’re a girl, no matter your job, no matter your function, even if you happen to’re working at dwelling. My spouse is a keep‑at‑dwelling mother and he or she is homeschooling our boys, however she is doing a priesthood work. She is doing ministry in our dwelling. And if everyone considered their office like that and considered their workday that manner, that I’m going into my realm of ministry the place I’m going to be a priest for the Lord and I’m going to carry the blessings of God to my co‑employees and to the shoppers and to the individuals I work together with, it could change the way in which that we do the whole lot, and such as you stated, it could develop the work of ministry throughout each metropolis and each state and each nation all through the world and can be what Jesus calls the dominion to be, this leaven that’s working by the lump of dough.
RUSTY: Yeah, completely. And also you’re proper; it adjustments how we take into consideration our work. Now, unexpectedly, work is extra thrilling. And so right here’s an attention-grabbing thought. So one of many issues that’s taking place within the office as we speak, form of throughout the board, is there’s actual struggles with worker engagement. So a few years in the past, form of the buzzword was “quiet quitting,” issues like that, and so employers are having an actual problem with retaining gifted workers, issues like that. Nicely, what’s attention-grabbing is among the components in that’s that ‑‑ there’s a management group known as McKinsey & Firm, and so they lately did a survey and located that 70% of the staff that they surveyed ‑‑ it was a big survey pattern ‑‑ 70% say that work is their major supply of that means and success in life. Okay, now take into consideration this. One of many causes for that’s as a result of right here, inside our nation, we’ve seen form of the function of the church or the affect of the church in tradition has been in decline for a while. You understand, we’re actually shifting from form of a non secular tradition to, now, very non‑spiritual, you realize, in numerous methods. So what which means is that fewer individuals wish to God as a supply of that means, and so if you happen to don’t have God, the place does that come from? Nicely, work is form of the one place that it may come from, however work can not ship what God is supposed to ship and what solely God can ship. And so I believe there’s lots of people that ‑‑ they’re annoyed by work as a result of that’s the one place they’re searching for that means and success, and so they’re disenchanted, you realize, and disgruntled, and all of these sorts of issues, and they also’re actually annoyed with work and it’s as a result of they’re trying to work to supply them with one thing that solely their Creator can do.
In order followers of Jesus, we get this, however, once more, we could be tempted to make work the supply of our that means and our success. We could be simply as tempted to try this as others. However after we maintain work in its correct perspective, like what we’ve been speaking about, now work is energizing and I also can take care of the frustrations at work in a extra constructive and productive manner as a result of work just isn’t the last word supply of my that means and even of my id. And so I believe if we are able to put work again in its scriptural perspective, I believe not solely will we be extra happy, shall be extra energized at work, but in addition we’ll be capable of see how the dominion of God and the alternatives we’ve to be on mission for the dominion of God are actually throughout us and we are able to take extra benefit of that.
WES: Yeah. Amen. Amen. What an ideal place to cease. Rusty, thanks for this dialog, and thanks to your work within the kingdom, Brother.
RUSTY: Nicely, thanks, Wes. I really like the podcast. Love what you’re doing, so carry on going, Brother.
