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On this episode of the Radically Christian Bible Examine Podcast, Wes McAdams and Marcus Stenson sort out the essential matter of discipleship and how one can create a disciple-making church tradition. They handle widespread misconceptions about discipleship, discover why many church buildings battle to prioritize disciple-making, and talk about how people can embrace their function as disciples even in difficult environments. This dialog is especially worthwhile for these feeling annoyed with church stagnation or questioning how one can transfer past mere church attendance to actually following Jesus.
The episode delves into biblical ideas such because the transformative energy of discipleship, the significance of each “rising” and “going” within the Christian stroll, and Jesus’ mannequin of investing in people. In addition they talk about how the early church’s understanding of discipleship differs from fashionable church tradition, encouraging listeners to reimagine their method to religious development and neighborhood affect.
Marcus Stenson, the visitor for this episode, brings a wealth of expertise and fervour to the dialog. He presently serves because the preaching minister on the Leander Church of Christ and is a co-founder of Christians for Kenya, a nonprofit targeted on equipping Kenyans to unfold the gospel. Stenson can also be a crew member at Be1Make1, a company devoted to empowering disciple-making. His sensible insights and strategic method to fostering disciple-making cultures in church buildings make this episode a must-listen for anybody looking for to deepen their religion and affect their neighborhood.
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Transcript (Credit score: Beth Tabor)
Welcome to the Radically Christian Bible Examine podcast. I’m your host, Wes McAdams. Right here we now have one aim: Study to like like Jesus. It’s nice to be again after a protracted break. I’ve actually missed releasing new episodes, however we’ve nonetheless been recording episodes and we now have some incredible conversations to share with you over the approaching weeks. We’re beginning a brand new collection on discipleship, and at present we’re going to speak about how one can be a disciple‑making church. My visitor at present is my good pal, Marcus Stenson.
Marcus presently serves because the preaching minister on the Leander Church of Christ, north of Austin. He’s a cofounder of Christians for Kenya, a kingdom‑going through nonprofit group that focuses on equipping Kenyans to unfold the gospel by means of training and humanitarian help. Marcus can also be a member of the crew at Be1Make1, a company devoted to empowering the disciple‑making goal that lives inside everybody.
I wish to start at present by studying from Ephesians 4, beginning in verse 11, which says, “He gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and academics, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for increase the physique of Christ, till all of us attain to the unity of the religion and of the information of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, in order that we might not be kids, tossed from side to side by the waves and carried about by each wind of doctrine, by human crafty, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Slightly, talking the reality in love, we’re to develop up in each manner into Him who’s the pinnacle, into Christ, from whom the entire physique, joined and held collectively by each joint with which it’s geared up, when every half is working correctly, makes the physique develop in order that it builds itself up in love.”
I hope that at present’s dialog is an encouragement to you, and I hope that it, as all the time, helps all of us be taught to like like Jesus.
WES: Marcus Stenson, welcome again to the podcast, Brother.
MARCUS: Hey, Wes, thanks a lot. It’s all the time a great time right here. Joyful to be right here.
WES: So excited to have you ever, and I do know that this matter that we’re speaking about is near your coronary heart. It’s one thing that you just’re captivated with. So let’s discuss discipleship. First, how do you outline that time period?
MARCUS: That’s an amazing place to begin. I outline discipleship as carefully as I can to what we see walked out within the scripture, with a bit little bit of context. And what I imply by that may be a disciple, talking of what we learn of when it comes to a disciple within the New Testomony, is an individual who has devoted their total life to following a rabbi or a trainer. They’ve determined not solely am I going to hearken to this particular person’s teachings, however I truly wish to mannequin my total life after this particular person. And so once we see the disciples who’re referred to as to Jesus observe him, they’re dropping all the things. Their life is now all about being like Jesus.
And so our stroll with Jesus modernly, for my part, is admittedly about two issues, and the primary is rising like Jesus grew. And I simply take a look at Luke when it says that Jesus grew in stature and knowledge and in favor with God and man, and, one, simply put a bit psychological notice that sure, Jesus grew, as laborious as that’s to fathom, in all of these totally different areas. So if I’m going to be like Jesus and a disciple of Jesus, I have to be dedicated to rising like he grew in these areas, as nicely. It’s about rising like Jesus grew, and, to me, it’s additionally about going with Jesus into mission or going the place Jesus went. And so after I consider discipleship, I consider these two phrases, rising and going.
God tells us many instances within the New Testomony that the purpose of our religion and the purpose of our discipleship is to be regularly remodeled increasingly more into the picture of Christ. That’s that concept coming by means of strongly within the writings of Paul, as nicely, and so after I take into consideration discipleship, I take into consideration that because it pertains to every day religious rhythms. What was Jesus doing and dedicated to that I see exemplified in his stroll that I have to be dedicated to and exemplify in my stroll, too? I wish to develop like he grew.
After which, you already know, Jesus doesn’t develop us only for the sake of educated acquisition or simply to say that we grew or in order that we are able to really feel like good disciples. He all the time grows disciples so he can ship them, so then the going half occurs, proper? And people are the 2 ways in which I’d outline discipleship.
WES: Yeah, I really like that, rising and going. That’s so good. That’s so good. So how do you suppose that lots of people misunderstand ‑‑ as you’ve taught, as you’ve made disciples, as you’ve helped others to make disciples, how do individuals misunderstand the phrase discipleship? As a result of it’s form of a religiousy, churchy phrase that we don’t actually use outdoors of church context, so how do individuals misunderstand that?
MARCUS: Yeah, it may form of seem to be a buzzword. It’s form of a double‑edged sword at this cut-off date. I believe much more persons are speaking about discipleship, and it’s one thing that’s been talked about in previous eras, as nicely, with various outcomes and ranging functions, and generally we now have to press up towards these a bit bit. However only for the widespread, on a regular basis individual that I encounter and that I work with, I believe that the concept of discipleship does sound tremendous‑non secular. It could possibly sound a bit hooey, and generally I believe that the largest impediment that we now have individually is that we contemplate it prefer it’s one other factor that we’re alleged to do. It’s nearly like one other factor that we add to the record that we hold about how one can be a great Christian or how one can be devoted or how one can incur or curry the favor of God in order that he’ll be happy with us, nearly one other guidelines, if you’ll, that we have to ensure that we care for in order that we’re in good standing with God.
However being a disciple and being in discipleship to Jesus, and even making disciples, will not be performative in that manner. It’s diagnostic, actually. When you consider it as one other factor that it’s best to do or have to do, it invitations a complete lot of different points to the desk as a result of then you definately begin excited about, nicely, the place do I get the time to go and make disciples, proper? How do I match this into my already busy schedule? And now I really feel responsible and now I really feel ashamed that I by no means do that, or I don’t decide to this, or I don’t really feel certified to do that. However after I say that it’s truly diagnostic is that, actually, being a disciple is one thing that you just’re referred to as to do within the scheme of your on a regular basis life as it’s already, as you go strolling alongside. And even being a disciple‑maker and serving to another person alongside that path is similar factor. Discipleship is much less about creating further time or discovering a strategy to create further time, and it’s extra about inviting the rhythms of Jesus into the time and life that you have already got, and it’s about inviting different individuals into the life that you just’re already dwelling, as nicely. So it’s not about creating extra. It’s about form of dwelling by means of a special perspective and lens the place you already are, if that is sensible.
WES: Yeah. I used to be excited about Colossians 3:17 as you have been speaking, “No matter you do in phrase or deed, do all the things within the identify of the Lord Jesus, giving due to the Father by means of Him,” that concept of that is about all the things that you just do. It’s about studying to be a follower of Jesus in your office, in your college, in all the things that comes out of your mouth, all the things you suppose, all the things you do. You recognize, one of many
misunderstandings I believe that I encounter ‑‑ and I simply considered this as you have been speaking ‑‑ is that lots of people that I speak to suppose that while you say disciple, you imply apostle, like they consider the 12. They consider the 12 disciples who, as you stated earlier, actually adopted Jesus, as in they walked the place Jesus walked, they lived with him, they realized from him day-after-day, they usually definitely have been amongst his first disciples, nevertheless it’s a much wider time period that included a number of different individuals who adopted Jesus, and the individuals that might proceed to observe Jesus in subsequent generations, together with us.
And so I believe that perhaps there’s a misunderstanding, and it form of goes with what you have been saying, {that a} disciple is sort of a tremendous‑Christian or one thing. Like you’ve gotten Christians, you already know, you’ve gotten saved individuals, folks that, you already know, they’ve been baptized they usually go to church and that form of factor, however then for those who ask them in the event that they’re a disciple, they suppose, nicely, I don’t know if I’m a disciple, or they consider only a choose group of people that actually adopted, walked with Jesus within the first century. They don’t essentially consider that as one thing that, quote‑unquote, regular Christians are alleged to be and do, and it encompasses all the things that we do in our life.
MARCUS: Oh, yeah, that’s such a great level, and I simply do not forget that Jesus instructed these apostles ‑‑ or these tremendous‑Christians, as we seek advice from them, to go and make disciples. He didn’t inform them to go and make extra apostles, so all people who turns into a follower of Jesus turns into a disciple. That’s the way it’s alleged to look, and so I believe you draw out a very good level there to not conflate the 2 in drawing that distinction there between apostles and disciples. Each follower is a disciple of Jesus.
I do suppose, although, it may assist in a manner. As a result of the phrase disciple carries such a special form of taste and connotation in our church make-up at present, it’s a very good alternative to speak about what that really means, and it is a chance to name your self deeper right into a religious rhythm and in patterning your life after Jesus versus simply perhaps exhibiting up on Sunday, or no matter concept we had of Christianity earlier than, in enjoying an element on this giant matrix. So yeah, I really like that.
WES: Yeah. Nicely, and I believe it’s useful to level out that the phrase Christian ‑‑ that’s the phrase we use the entire time. It’s within the URL of my web site; it’s within the title of my podcast. So we use “Christian” on a regular basis. It’s not a foul time period, nevertheless it’s not a time period that, apparently, first‑century followers of Jesus used about themselves. It appears to be one thing ‑‑ it happens very seldom within the New Testomony. It appears to be a time period that others used about them, they usually stated, nicely, you already know, they’re calling us this, however Luke says they referred to as the disciples Christians. They referred to as these followers of The Means “Christians.”
So I believe it’s useful for us to actually undertake this concept of discipleship and to name ourselves disciples and consider ourselves as disciples as a result of, to your first level, it’s about rising, it’s about going, it’s about doing, it’s about being a follower of Jesus. It’s not nearly being saved. It’s not nearly everlasting future. And I believe, so usually, we predict, nicely, I grew to become a Christian, I’m a Christian, and what we predict meaning is I’m going to heaven after I die. I’m in a saved relationship with God relatively than I’m within the strategy of being remodeled into the likeness of Christ; I’m within the strategy of turning into increasingly more like Jesus day-after-day of my life; I’m doing all the things in phrase and deed within the identify of the Lord Jesus Christ. That may be a a lot totally different concept than merely I’m a saved particular person.
MARCUS: Sure, a lot, and a technique that I’ve form of tried to articulate that is even primarily based on what you simply stated, the place Christians have been first named that in Antioch. “Christian” is what you’re referred to as; it’s what you’re named. However a disciple is who you’re; it’s central to your id, and there’s a deeper facet to that, and it calls all of you into that being when it comes to your id, your esteem. The way you consider your standing with God relies on a measure of discipleship and never simply the identify that the world has to name us as a result of we’re so radically totally different from what they see round them all over the place else, so yeah.
WES: Yeah, completely. So let’s discuss this concept of ‑‑ nicely, truly, let’s allow you to share a bit bit about Be1Make1. This is without doubt one of the causes you’re so captivated with discipleship and disciple‑making. So inform us about Be1Make1, as a result of I believe that that’ll assist set the stage for the remainder of our dialog.
MARCUS: Yeah. Man, Be1Make1 is a corporation that I’ve the profit and the privilege of being part of that the concept actually began for again in 2015. Again in 2015, myself and a few actually good mates, a few brothers in arms, so to talk, Chip and Anthony, we sat in a dusty church workplace in Athens, Ohio, and we had all been in ministry for a while at that time and we form of began carrying this burden round, and we’d come collectively as a result of we got here to search out out that we shared this burden. And what we began to come across nearly all over the place we went, in a number of totally different church contexts ‑‑ and that is definitely not prescriptive or descriptive of all church contexts, however in so many we have been seeing of us that have been extremely devoted to the religion, however they have been dormant, they usually have been conscious that they have been dormant they usually have been upset by the truth that they have been dormant. They have been critical in regards to the religion. I don’t actually know many of us extra critical than our religion custom within the church buildings of Christ about their religion and about doctrine and what it means to their lives. However together with that seriousness additionally got here a stage of being stagnant that, additionally, instinctively they knew was not good, however there was simply this inertia that it appeared like everybody was incapable of overcoming.
After which the one that actually received me probably the most was that folk which are simply genuinely devoted to the core, in each measure by which you may even measure devoted, however completely fearful on the similar time, paralyzed with concern, and that concern actually fed into the dormancy and the stagnancy that everybody was experiencing. And all of us three simply form of agreed that we had a ardour to see individuals truly expertise the enjoyment and peace and energy that Jesus truly guarantees his disciples, and we began to work very diligently to determine how we are able to get again to the unique mission that Jesus gave us in a church context, and that’s to only merely be disciples who make disciples, and what began there has grown over the past nearly decade now. It feels loopy to say.
And we’ve simply been endeavoring to assist the person stay in that religious rhythm that I talked about a couple of minutes in the past, to develop to be extra like Jesus after which, finally, going with Jesus into his mission, no matter that mission is for them personally that God has referred to as them to; after which additionally to assist church management come to alignment in mission and imaginative and prescient and values and the way they’ll begin to shift or make the pivot out of what I wish to name the Discipline of Desires ministry complicated into one in every of a disciple‑making tradition.
There’s one factor that I grew to become completely satisfied of, and that’s by means of being instructed dozens and dozens and dozens of instances by so many individuals, “We wish to share the gospel,” “We wish to be identified in our neighborhood.” However I grew to become satisfied that it’s human nature to not share one thing that they’re not completely assured in, and so it was going to take a complete ‑‑ not a reimagining, however actually simply getting again to the guts of the place this actually begins for us individually, between us and God, after which congregationally, between us and God. And in order that’s what Be1Make1 does. We construct on mission leaders, and on mission leaders, construct or nourish on mission church buildings, and it’s simply our aim to see all people faucet into what Jesus has for them. So I’d like to dig deeper on any particular facet, however that’s the place that comes from.
WES: Yeah. Nicely, it’s that concept of management and church buildings, and also you used the phrase “disciple‑making tradition.” So if a church goes to change into a disciple‑making church, that that’s their imaginative and prescient, that that’s their tradition, that that’s their mission, that they’re dedicated to that and captivated with that, what must be ‑‑ what do their practices have to be? What does their imaginative and prescient have to be? What do they should prioritize? Possibly priorities are one thing we have to discuss.
MARCUS: Completely. So there are a pair issues right here. This can be a nice query. I adore it. The very first thing ‑‑ and I say this to not be vital or accusatory of anybody in any church context. This comes from my private expertise in working with a number of totally different church‑management teams. I believe the very first thing it’s a must to do is it’s a must to change the aim, and I believe the aim so many instances, particularly in a church that perhaps doesn’t really feel prefer it’s thriving, is to get individuals within the doorways, and if we’re being sincere, if we ask, you already know, what do I would like for them after they go to our church or after they lastly come ‑‑ I would like them to love us. I would like them to have an amazing expertise. I would like them to search out individuals like them and perhaps they’ll come again. And in the event that they hold coming again, they’ll get baptized after which our church will develop and we’ll have a younger household or we’ll have children after which we’ll really feel actually good about what we’re doing.
And that’s to not say that any of that’s fallacious in and of itself, however I believe it’s actually vital for church buildings to ask themselves, is what we would like for individuals after they contact the physique of Christ right here the identical factor that Jesus needs for individuals after they contact the physique of Christ right here? In the event you’re gonna be a disciple‑making church, you gotta care extra about getting them all the things that Jesus guarantees them, at first, and past them simply liking what they expertise after they come. And that form of flies within the face of our mannequin that’s actually labored nicely in our nation since most likely 1960 or ’70, the place you attempt to have one of the best preaching, one of the best reward, and one of the best applications, and that’s why I name it Discipline of Desires. In the event you construct it, they are going to come, and, hopefully, they simply hold coming. In order that’s the very first thing: Change the aim to what Jesus’ aim is for each particular person.
The second factor is to acknowledge, as a management crew, that you’re chosen and you’ve got relationships and religious formation that you’re stewarding. And as church management, you’ve gotten a duty to offer an image of what religious maturity appears like and a pathway for the way it’s achievable, and meaning that you would be able to’t hope that your church goes to be crammed with disciple‑makers, or disciples for that matter, for those who’re not dedicated to going first and doing that your self. So be dedicated first to being what you wish to see.
After which form of a associated suggestion on that is prioritize the motion over the announcement. Historically ‑‑ as a result of above all, particularly elders, who I respect and love and all the time have one of the best intention at coronary heart, they concern, above all, dropping individuals on their watch or being one of many guys that, you already know, the church went off target in a roundabout way throughout my tenure. And so these two fears dominate a number of actions which are taken or not taken, after which we often attempt to craft bulletins about new applications or new initiatives that won’t upset the folks that we don’t wish to lose, and, subsequently, we now have to be actually conservative in what we’re speaking about and we find yourself attempting to talk to of us which are most likely going to be disgruntled anyway and it finally ends up ruling the tradition.
So, you already know, be in motion first as a result of the factor that may churn over a tradition at a church are the tales which are being instructed and the testimonies which are coming from motion that’s already occurring, proper? And that manner, when the announcement is made, the demonstration of the profit and the worth has already been lived out stay and direct, and also you’re not within the place of attempting to persuade anyone of one thing new that you just guys have to do; you’re simply sharing one thing unbelievable that God is already doing in your church, even when it begins small.
And so while you’re sharing one thing that everybody already agrees is a necessity and a want, versus attempting to persuade any person of one thing new and scary, your probabilities for fulfillment undergo the roof versus the place you have been working from earlier than. So change the aim. Know that it’s on you, as management, to go first and to indicate an image and a pathway, after which prioritize motion over the announcement. Simply begin being disciples that make disciples earlier than you ask anyone or attempt to persuade anyone that this needs to be the grand design of our total church. So these could be my three.
WES: Yeah. Man, I really like that. That’s so good. And, actually, going again to that concept of adjusting the aim and actually having discipleship because the aim, it actually does change how we, quote‑unquote, do church, how we lead a congregation. And I believe usually about ‑‑ I hold coming again ‑‑ on this collection, I hold coming again to Luke 14 and Jesus’ phrases, his admonition to depend the fee earlier than you change into a disciple, and his warning that for those who tackle this [mantle] of discipleship, for those who come and observe me, it’s going to be pricey, and never everybody pays the fee. So for those who’re not going to take up your cross and observe me, for those who’re not keen to hate your father and mom, your spouse and your kids, your individual life, then don’t hassle coming and being my disciple.
And I believe how totally different that’s as a method than the way in which that we sometimes, quote‑unquote, do church or the way in which that we attempt to entice individuals. And we simply ‑‑ once more, as you stated, we would like individuals to love us. We would like individuals to attend. We might even need individuals to get baptized. However, once more, I believe there’s a slight distinction between what we consider as making Christians, getting individuals saved, and making disciples, and church buildings which are actually captivated with making disciples, they set a excessive bar for themselves and for different individuals as a result of Jesus units a excessive bar. He doesn’t ‑‑ Jesus doesn’t exit and say, hey, we’d actually like so that you can come to church on Sunday. We actually need you to be a church attender. He calls individuals, observe me, like your complete life, like all the things, 24/7. I would like you to return and observe me, be taught from me, change into precisely like me, take up your cross and die like I’m dying. I imply, it’s all the things. It’s whole, 100% dedication. And to the folks that say, I don’t know; that looks like quite a bit, Jesus says, okay, see ya, and I don’t know that we’re keen to try this. I don’t know that we’re keen to let individuals stroll away.
And I believe usually about John 6. I take into consideration the truth that Jesus is keen to let individuals go away. He even asks the 12, “Do you wish to go away, as nicely?” And naturally they are saying, “The place else would we go? You’ve the phrases of everlasting life.” However I ponder, are we keen to try this? Are we keen to have a look at our congregations and say it is a place for individuals who wish to be disciples and make disciples; it is a place for individuals who wish to change into like Jesus, and we’re going to maintain one another to that commonplace; we’re going to carry one another accountable to rising and going?
MARCUS: Yeah, I believe you carry up a very good level there. It’s not simply the individual that comes new to your church that may stroll away. It’s ‑‑ sadly, there are some of us in your quantity, while you say to them, hey, we’re critical about this. That is what we now have been referred to as to as a congregation ‑‑ there’s going to be some uncomfortability there, and that’s why it turns into a problem for leaderships. And I don’t wish to diminish that in any respect. I’m not saying that that is straightforward to depend that value and say, you already know what? There’s a sure tradition that we’re dedicated to having right here. There’s a mission that we’re referred to as to and we’re all in on that. It won’t be for everyone, and we’re okay with that. That’s most likely the scariest factor that any shepherd or elder may even take into consideration. However you make a very good level, Wes. I don’t discover one place within the New Testomony the place Jesus was simply attempting to get somebody to synagogue the following Saturday. He was about creating lives that have been modeled and formed and shaped after him, and, finally, that’s our job, too, and that’s what we now have to be dedicated to.
WES: Yeah. And even speaking about, quote‑unquote, doing church or what does the meeting seem like ‑‑ I imply, I believe there’s a lot that might be stated in regards to the transformative energy of worship, the transformative energy of what we do within the meeting, what we do once we break bread collectively, once we share the cup collectively, once we sing songs collectively. Actually, I believe we may
spend a complete hour speaking about that, about the way in which that our worship meeting, nevertheless you wish to phrase that ‑‑ how that contributes to creating disciples. And if a congregation, if the management has that mentality, that the reply to the query, why do you sing, will not be, nicely, as a result of it’s fallacious to do the rest. You recognize, the reply to why do you sing is as a result of we wish to be followers of Jesus. We would like the Spirit of God to dwell in us richly. We wish to be remodeled into his likeness, and singing to at least one one other in psalms and hymns and religious songs is a part of that strategy of turning into increasingly more like Jesus. I believe all the things that we do, each in our particular person lives and once we come collectively on Sunday and Wednesday, and every time else we come collectively, would all contribute to that disciple‑making and disciple‑being course of.
MARCUS: Agree. As we form of talked about in a previous query, a lot of this comes all the way down to not essentially not doing issues that we’re dedicated to doing, and even including one thing new all the time. Generally that’s applicable, however it’s why we do what we do. Why we do what we do informs all the things about ‑‑ all the things from the way it feels, to the way it presents, to what you acquire from it, to the way it blesses different individuals. The attitude that you just carry into it should change what you get out of it. I wish to say the story that you just stay in is the story that you just stay out. What’s our story as a person in relationship to this God that has created us and, for some motive, lavished a lot favor and charm on us? What’s our story as a congregation, a neighborhood of believers who come collectively to pour into one another to that finish, to glorify this God each single Sunday? It actually adjustments the dynamic and the why you’re there, not essentially the what, as a result of we have to be in neighborhood worshiping the Father collectively, nevertheless it does put a barely totally different twist on why we’re there and what it means to us.
WES: Yeah, completely. And it provides us a metric, too, doesn’t it, to have the ability to take a look at ourselves and to have a look at what we’re undertaking as a church household, additionally, to say, are we undertaking that? If the aim is just being current and checking that off of our record, that, yep, I confirmed up, I confirmed up, I confirmed up, I confirmed up ‑‑ for 35 years, I’ve proven up. If that’s the aim, if that’s the metric, then we really feel like we’ve achieved one thing even when we haven’t grown, even when we haven’t gone, even when we haven’t completed this strategy of turning into increasingly more like Jesus or going and making disciples of others. But when that’s the metric ‑‑ if the metric is, are you turning into extra like Jesus, nicely, that actually requires some introspective examination, and that requires us to go and really do one thing along with simply exhibiting up. And, once more, exhibiting up is vital, it’s good, however to what finish? What are you undertaking in exhibiting up? What are you attempting to perform? Or do you even understand there’s something to be achieved within the exhibiting up?
MARCUS: I believe, simply so as to add to what you’re saying, we actually have such a chance as a result of church buildings which are this and wrestling with this ‑‑ not even simply church buildings corporately, however disciples which are wrestling with this and this, I believe we go away a lot on the desk when it comes to our final goal on this planet and on this life by not tapping into this. Jesus is saying I’m going to offer you a lifetime of significance, not simply a lifetime of temporal significance, however everlasting significance. In the event you change into like me, for those who stroll with me, for those who stay this life, the issues that you just do and the life that you just stay are going to matter eternally.
And if it’s actually nearly attending for 35 years, you might get up 35 years later and nonetheless be racked with anxiousness that you just haven’t completed sufficient, that you just haven’t been adequate. You would possibly get up and by no means be capable to share with one other soul since you’re actually not assured in your individual safety and nicely‑being. It adjustments the way in which that you would be able to deal with your brothers and sisters since you carry this guilt or disgrace round with you every day. You haven’t actually gotten to the underside of why God has truly put you right here on this planet. And I believe simply strolling with Jesus in a every day rhythm, and understanding what that appears like and letting God work on you, coming collectively and letting God work on you in neighborhood with different disciples, supplies you a lot extra depth and richness of life as you go from day after day, and sources with which to even meet stress and the trials and tribulations which are certain to return, that this actually is one of the best ways to do life.
It’s not simply one thing that we intellectually know, and we learn it and we go and hope that it truly involves cross sometime. Proper right here, proper now, dwelling as a disciple is probably the most fulfilling and rewarding manner that you would be able to stroll this factor out. And I simply hope and pray that increasingly more brothers and sisters can form of latch onto that and sink their tooth into it as a result of it actually is gorgeous and highly effective.
WES: Yeah, yeah, that’s lovely. And I believe it goes again to what you stated to start with about this confidence that comes from understanding that we’re saved by grace by means of religion, that we’re saved as a present from God and that it’s not about this legalistic guidelines of issues that we’re attempting to perform, however a couple of relationship that we now have with Jesus and a relationship that we’re attempting to share with different individuals as a result of we all know how good it’s, we all know how fantastic it’s, and we’re so excited to have skilled it ourselves, and we would like different individuals to expertise it, as nicely.
MARCUS: Yeah, a religion and a sharing that comes from an overflow of gratitude versus one that’s obligatory or one thing that’s one thing that it’s a must to do is completely totally different. I’m well-known ‑‑ nicely, well-known is unquestionably an overstatement. I shouldn’t use that phrase. I’ve been identified to say that we’re all disciple‑makers anyway. We make disciples of all types of issues. You make disciples of the books that you just learn and the exhibits that you just binge on Netflix and the eating places that you just eat at. I don’t even stay in DFW anymore, however all people is aware of about [Hutchins] BBQ. Shout out to these guys over there. They’re doing good work. I make disciples of a number of issues. Something that has really blessed and impacted my life, I’m liable to make a disciple of it and share with individuals.
And so after I say being a disciple or disciple‑making is diagnostic, for those who don’t have that with Jesus, it may be a crimson flag or a clue to you that one thing is a bit bit convoluted in your conception of how this works between you and him, what you’re truly doing right here.
So I would like all people to have that overflowing pleasure. It’ll take the strain off of you. In the event you suppose, you already know, I have to go and share Jesus with any person as a result of that’s what I have to do to be good, it’s all the time going to be arduous. It’s all the time going to be traumatic. It’s all the time going to be ridden with anxiousness. You’re all the time going to really feel such as you want the right script and the right phrases to say as a substitute of it being what Jesus actually designed it to be, an as‑you‑go, natural train through which somebody is definitely simply asking you, “Why are you the way in which that you’re?” “Why do you’ve gotten pleasure after I know that your life goes by means of utter turmoil proper now?” “Why don’t you lash out at individuals? Like I’d have lashed out, however you by no means lash out. What’s that?” “What is that this peace that you’ve? I’ve seen you in grief and it doesn’t seem like grief that I’ve seen earlier than.” These are the issues that change into current in a life, the fruits of the Spirit that trigger individuals to ask questions, and your alternatives to make disciples are going to return way more naturally than you ever imagined. It’s simply going to be sharing from the overflow. Not one thing that you just do, nevertheless it’s simply who you’re.
WES: So what do you suppose we do ‑‑ and you’ll have already touched on a few of this, however what do you suppose we do collectively, as church buildings, as congregations, that construct hindrances or roadblocks, obstacles that hold us from being disciples and making disciples and rising as disciples, issues that change into a part of our applications, our techniques, our cultures that change into a roadblock to undertaking this mission as a result of we form of had a special mission in thoughts and we didn’t have this angle, and so we’ve set issues up that really have unintentionally hindered individuals from rising as disciples?
MARCUS: Yeah, there’s most likely quite a bit that comes into play right here, and we did speak a bit bit about ‑‑ I briefly talked about that form of Discipline of Desires ministry method, and I solely would go into a bit bit extra depth on that as a result of I wish to ensure that all people is aware of that I’m not vital of this. I believe that the way in which that we form of realized to arrange church and do issues and do church efficiently was a product of a really distinctive time period in American historical past. What I imply by that’s, you already know, there was a cut-off date the place, you already know, the info will inform you that 70 % of individuals have been in church someplace each Sunday, and in that place and time, you possibly can commit an terrible lot of power to only being one of the best church on the market, and that is the place Rick Warren and people guys over at Saddleback form of patented the three P’s mannequin, and everybody else adopted it with various levels of success.
And because the tradition moved away from common church attendance, we discovered ourselves able of probably not referring to the tradition so nicely anymore, probably not having talked quite a bit about discipleship as a result of, you already know, it wasn’t actually about that. It was about simply presenting because the church on the town that everybody’s going to go to since just about everybody’s in church. However now there are lower than 20 % of individuals in church each Sunday, and, actually, that’s for those who’re counting three out of each eight Sundays as common attendance. So the atmosphere through which we discover ourselves is so very totally different, that if we’re nonetheless married to that method to ministry, if that’s how we’re going to make each resolution, it should get in the way in which of natural disciple‑making tradition.
One thing that’s form of an apart to that’s simply the way in which that we discuss this. Simply to go a bit bit deeper on motion over announcement, in that Discipline of Desires method, we wish to make the right announcement for a brand new program or a brand new initiative, and if that’s the way in which you wish to try to carry an concept of disciple‑making to your church, you make it programmatic, however disciple‑making will not be programmatic, it’s cultural, and so it should fail.
If anybody out there’s aware of the product adoption curve, that is simply human psychology and the way it works. In each single new ‑‑ I assume while you introduce one thing new to a market, you’re going to have 2.5 % of individuals which are, like, innovators. They’re on it as a result of it’s new and it’s thrilling. That exists in a church. It exists when Apple drops a brand new telephone. It’s the identical telephone yearly, however they’re going to camp outdoors. They’re going to attend in line in a tent or one thing like that as a result of they’re the innovators. After the innovators, you’ve gotten early adopters. Your early adopters are 13.5 % of the inhabitants, and they’ll do what the innovators do as a result of they’ve the affect, they usually’ll do it as soon as the profit has been established or demonstrated to the market. The following 34 % is early majority, and the early majority will do regardless of the early adopters do as a result of the early adopters are individuals of affect in the neighborhood. The late majority will observe the early majority. That’s one other 34 %. After which you’ve gotten 16 % of any given inhabitants which are simply laggards, and for those who’re a laggard on the market, you continue to have like the unique Razr flip telephone, and also you are actually stylish once more as a result of Razr flip telephones are again. However that 16 % is all the time going to exist. It’s simply how individuals work.
The error that church buildings make ‑‑ and this will get in the way in which of a disciple‑making tradition ‑‑ is what we attempt to do, since we take a look at these two, the early and late majority, 68 % of a church inhabitants in any given context, and since that’s the biggest proportion, we wish to be certain we don’t upset these individuals. No matter we’re going to do, these individuals received to be purchased in, and so we are going to attempt to craft an announcement that may attraction to that 68 % and in some way nonetheless inspire individuals to maneuver in a special path, and that seldom works. Matter of truth, more often than not it doesn’t work, and, you already know, you most likely have heard story after story after story of, nicely, we all the time attempt to do one thing after which it simply by no means occurs, or it fizzles out, or we do it for a bit bit after which it stops. That is the form of tradition that this exists in. However the true cool factor about that is, for those who perceive how this works scientifically and datawise, to ensure that any new introduction to succeed in momentum the place it’s going to be adopted by the early and late majorities, all it’s a must to do is get the primary 16 %. A brand new product will attain momentum when it hits 16 %. Most individuals most likely do not know that there are nonetheless extra Android telephones on the market than iPhones as a result of there’s such social strain to have an iPhone and have blue bubbles as a substitute of inexperienced bubbles. That’s as a result of they reached momentum a very long time in the past, however they’re not even the bulk within the market.
So for those who’re in a church context and also you’re saying we actually wish to be disciple‑makers, we wish to be a church the place we’re disciples who make disciples, what you bought to do is it’s a must to be keen to go first. In most church buildings, that 2.5 %, these innovators, might be simply your elders and your ministry workers. It may be some deacons or a few key gamers there. It’s truly a lot smaller than you suppose. In the event you take your church ‑‑ in case your church is 200 individuals and also you say we solely gotta get 16 % of individuals right here to consider that they’re a disciple who’s alleged to make disciples and to begin doing it earlier than it should change into the tradition of our church, that’s manner totally different from saying we now have to craft an announcement that motivates and strikes 68 % of our individuals instantly. So the mentality that ‑‑ that Discipline of Desires, make the announcement, begin this system will get in the way in which each time as a result of it overcomplicates what this actually is. In order that’s the very first thing.
The second factor is, I believe generally there’s an unwillingness to create intentional areas for discipleship to happen, and we come by it truthfully as a result of Sunday is so vital to us, and it’s going to stay vital to us. However after I take a look at the lifetime of Jesus, we see him working in several areas of neighborhood, and I believe it’s vital for us to offer the area as a lot as we are able to for each disciple to develop in those self same areas. I’ll offer you an instance. Jesus hung out within the erémos, the wilderness. With out query, every day, with regularity, he’s received one‑on‑one time together with his Father the entire time. That’s a religious rhythm that each disciple needs to be in. I can’t actually be answerable for that, or you possibly can’t, as a church chief. That’s as much as the person disciple. Then he had a clear area with three disciples, Peter, James, and John, who received to see him not solely transfigured on the highest of the mountain in all of his glory that wasn’t accessible to everybody, but additionally noticed him deep at midnight backyard when he’s shedding tears and sweat drops of blood that not everybody received to see, both. So these have been folks that have been doing life with him in a manner that the peaks and the valleys have been seen, they usually saved one another accountable they usually walked collectively. Each disciple wants that, too.
From there, Jesus had the 12, and we’ve talked about them at present. That’s a private area, and he was on mission with these guys in a particular manner that he wasn’t with others. Church buildings which are critical about disciple‑making will create an area for individuals to search out their 12 there in that context. That may take the type of a small‑group ministry. It would take the type of one other ministry that’s occurring on the church. But when your whole power is simply devoted on get individuals right here on Sunday, and also you’re not creating the area for some of us to get clear with each other or private with each other, you’re form of reducing your individual legs out from below you when it comes to creating an area the place of us may be disciples who make disciples.
Social area for Jesus ‑‑ he had the 70. He despatched the 70 out. They have been on mission with him, too. That’s a bit bit extra analogous to our common church gathering on a Sunday, the place all people is coming collectively. Groups develop, ministries develop. That’s the straightforward one for us as a result of our total manner of church is centered round that social area. After which there’s the general public area. Jesus, you already know, sat in entrance of the multitudes together with his disciples. They fed people who have been needy. They healed dozens and dozens of individuals, and that’s the going half. Once we’re not collectively in that clear area, that social area collectively as a physique, are we nonetheless on mission collectively in public? Are we nonetheless going with Jesus in that mission to make an affect positively on somebody’s life in order that they’re provoked deep inside them to ask the query, “Who’re these individuals? I have to name them one thing. I believe they name them Christians. What’s it about these individuals? Why are they serving to us? Why are they invested in us?” And so that might be one of many unintentional obstacles, as nicely, simply not facilitating these areas, and the expectation that you just talked about earlier than, that that is what it appears like, that is the pathway to religious maturity. We’re already strolling it; we would like you to stroll it with us.
WES: Yeah, that’s so good. And I can’t assist however suppose that so a lot of our congregations are arrange with the potential for precisely what you’re speaking about however with out the intentionality. With out the aim or the imaginative and prescient of it being to serve that goal of being and making disciples, then it turns into one thing totally different. And I hold coming again to the concept a lot of what we do is about info, perhaps inspiration, however very seldom transformation. And so we like to tell, and generally we wish to encourage, nevertheless it simply ends there. But when our aim is transformation, it’s a way more tough aim. If our aim is definitely to take individuals from the place they’re to the place they have to be, which is increasingly more like Jesus, that’s tough as a result of then we now have to take care of the very fact that, oh, nicely, we’re form of resisting the Spirit right here. We’re quenching the Spirit right here, and we have to repent and we have to change, and there wants to really be change over time. If we’re the identical individuals at present that we have been 10 years in the past, one thing is failing and we have to repent drastically.
But when we simply train to tell or train to encourage, nicely, then we are able to really feel like we did an amazing job and we are able to pat ourselves on the again. We’re informing individuals. They know extra Bible now than they used to know, or they really feel impressed each week they usually really feel like, oh, that was an amazing sermon or that was an amazing Bible class or that was an amazing small group or no matter. But when they’re not truly ‑‑ if we’re not truly being remodeled, there’s an issue and we’re falling brief. However, once more, we now have Bible lessons, we now have small teams, we now have massive assemblies. Persons are out in the neighborhood. They’re within the office. They’re within the college. They’re within the public. But when we’re not doing these issues with the intention of being and making disciples, then we’re falling in need of the mission.
MARCUS: I really like that you just say that. Really, I laughed ‑‑ somebody stated, the opposite day, for those who don’t take a look at your Fb recollections from 10 years in the past and really feel embarrassed, then you definately’re not rising, and I believed that was a very humorous manner to have a look at that. However yeah, it’s true. There is no such thing as a dwelling factor in God’s creation that ‑‑ I imply, if it’s not rising, it’s dying. That’s simply form of the way in which issues work. And we received to be rising as disciples as a result of sanctification will not be a course of that finishes this facet of the brand new heavens and the brand new earth.
I wish to converse to potential concern. If somebody out there’s form of weirded out by this complete disciple‑making pivot and church tradition already, let me attempt to assuage your fears a bit bit. What Wes simply stated is so vital as a result of we now have a number of the skeleton in place already. These areas generally exist nearly utterly in several church contexts and dynamics. They’re simply not purposed in direction of that. One of many biggest fears that I hear after I sit down with of us is that there are a number of sacred cows right here. Like we are able to’t do away with VBS. We will’t do away with this program or that program, and that’s actually not a viable strategy to method it. A greater strategy to method it’s to say, okay, listed here are the issues that we’re doing already. How do these or how can these be purposed in direction of the aim of disciple‑making? How can we perhaps reinvent this factor that we like to do however has been dropping steam and we really feel like we’re alleged to do it? How can we revitalize it with this mission that pulls us all collectively and unifies us and galvanizes us and offers it a larger goal than simply we’ve all the time completed this right here?
So that you would possibly discover that you just received’t discover all the things that you just’re afraid of ending up on the reducing ground on the reducing ground. You simply would possibly discover that there’s new life within the locations and the context that you have already got if there’s goal and intention behind them, if there’s a unifying imaginative and prescient and a mission and worth as the way in which you carry your self in that area behind them. So I wish to encourage anyone or any church that’s this to not get intimidated or afraid of what you would possibly lose by making this a spotlight since you actually solely stand all the things to realize.
WES: Yeah. So nicely stated. So let’s speak to the one that is not only within the 16 %; they’re within the 1 %. Like they’re listening to us they usually’re like, amen, Marcus, I 100% wish to be a disciple. I wish to make disciples. I wish to be a part of the general mission of the church. I wish to be a part of the Nice Fee and making disciples, however they’re a part of a congregation that’s stagnant, that isn’t targeted on this, that has no want to do that, that actually doesn’t wish to change, that they wish to hold doing what they’ve been doing they usually’re actually not all in favour of reimagining what they need to be, what they might be. And so how can we encourage that individual that appears like they’re all by themselves they usually’re not a part of a neighborhood that’s dedicated to this mission, and what can they do of their context, do you suppose?
MARCUS: Glorious query, and people individuals exist. I’ve had the privilege of working with a pair, and my recommendation is all the time to them, and my recommendation is to you, if you end up on this place, all the time take a look at Jesus. We will’t have this complete dialog about patterning ourselves after Jesus and rising like he grew after which abandon it if we’re in a non‑ultimate circumstance. It’s all the time going to be the reply: “What Would Jesus Do,” like an previous bracelet we used to put on in 1993. What would Jesus do on this state of affairs? One of many ideas that I like to show, and I actually wish to dig in deep on, known as put money into the one. It’s one of many expertise that I believe Jesus was extremely proficient at, and what we see in Jesus’ ministry is, whether or not he was in a bigger or smaller discipleship context with the oldsters he was in neighborhood with, he impacted lots of people separately: one particular person at a time, one feeding at a time, one therapeutic at a time, one dialog that actually shouldn’t have been occurring at a time, and it teaches us that even that one particular person, in Jesus’ eyes, is value it. It’s well worth the funding.
And the gospel, when it impacts one life, has infinite energy, so please don’t be intimidated or suppose that you just want everybody else to return to consensus about doing this discipleship factor earlier than you start, as a result of Jesus, in his instance, was capable of take probably the most socially outcast, probably the most destitute and switch them into a number of the biggest disciple‑makers and evangelists in historical past. I really like Jesus’ interplay with the girl on the nicely, not as a result of she’s a lady that he shouldn’t have been speaking to, not due to the life that she led earlier than that point that we deal with a lot, however as a result of she grew to become a lady who led a complete village to Jesus, and never I or perhaps anybody else on this podcast proper now has that on their resume. So don’t suppose that it needs to be a giant motion. The best actions begin with one. Discover the one that you just’re alleged to put money into and begin making a disciple proper there.
And along with that, it won’t even be any person that’s outdoors of your church. It may be any person that’s proper there in entrance of you that you just see each week, who you don’t actually know that nicely for some motive, or perhaps God has form of been tugging on you, there’s one thing occurring of their life. Huddle up with that particular person and begin strolling out these rhythms of Jesus collectively. Give one another permission to encourage and hold you accountable with each other, and also you’re going to be shocked with what God goes to do with that. What is going to occur in a church the place nothing is occurring and impulsively one or two individuals begin occurring is phrase will unfold in a short time, and the query is gonna come, nicely, how ‑‑ like we haven’t had friends right here in at the least three years. Impulsively, you already know, Wes has received a brand new ‑‑ what’s going on with that? Or, wow, somebody received baptized. The preacher didn’t even do it. What was that? Somebody received baptized on Saturday. What are we doing on Saturday? These tales, these testimonies might be a lot better at inspiring and convincing the oldsters which are in your context that it is a worthwhile endeavor. So be the one who makes the one, and also you’ll be shocked how briskly God can generate momentum like that. I’ve seen that occur a number of instances. So that might be my encouragement to you. You are able to do far more than you suppose, and each one particular person is value it in God’s eyes.
WES: Amen. Amen. So nicely stated. Be the one which makes the one. I simply can’t assist however suppose that, sure, it might be ultimate ‑‑ it might be ultimate if all people in your congregation ‑‑ in case your elders, in case your preacher, in case your deacons, if your pals, if all people was on board, in the event that they have been all captivated with this, however we are able to’t watch for the best state of affairs to begin obeying Jesus. That’s what discipleship is. Discipleship is obeying Jesus when it’s in season and when it’s out of season, when it’s straightforward and when it’s laborious, and so we simply do what Jesus would have us to do. We attempt to be devoted whatever the state of affairs, and that’s it.
And I’m so glad that you just stated that it won’t be an individual outdoors of the physique. It will not be any person who will not be a Christian. It may be a saved, baptized particular person, however they’re actually not rising as a follower of Jesus, as an apprentice of Jesus, as a disciple, and your affect, your encouragement, your admonishment, your simply being mates with them and strolling with them and letting them see you be a disciple may be the encouragement that they should begin being the individual that God needs them to be.
MARCUS: 100%. A lot of this discipleship factor is in regards to the one‑anothering each other that we examine within the New Testomony, and it begins there. Finally, for those who did have somebody that you just have been discipling that comes into your church physique, you’re going to need them to see that neighborhood. You’re going to need them to see that love. You’re going to need them to see that discipleship on show, so begin proper there with who’s in entrance of you and let God create the entire different alternatives organically as you go all through your day. Preserve your head on a swivel, hold your eyes up, ask God to indicate ‑‑ who am I alleged to put money into at present?
Once we are speaking about individuals outdoors of church ‑‑ I used to suppose that this was the place this suits, however, truly, generally it suits with of us which are within your church. Your greatest alternative to make a disciple or to create a relationship that issues might be someplace buried beneath of your deepest agitation or frustration. It’s the locations the place you are feeling hurried, you are feeling rushed, you are feeling aggravated. That’s a spot the place I’d be very critical about inviting God into and simply seeing what he does with that state of affairs as a result of he has a manner of turning these on their heads, and it may be actually unbelievable to see what he does working in these conditions.
WES: That’s good. That’s so good, Brother. Thanks for this dialog, Marcus. Thanks for being a disciple, for making disciples, and for all of your work within the kingdom, Brother.
MARCUS: Thanks a lot for having me. This has been an amazing dialog, and thanks to everybody who’s listening. In the event you’re feeling the tug that there’s extra to this than simply exhibiting up each Sunday, there’s. And it’s not all the time straightforward, however it’s lovely. It’s highly effective. There’s pleasure, there’s peace, there’s goal in it. So chase it down. God will meet you there.
WES: Amen.
Thanks a lot for listening to the Radically Christian Bible Examine Podcast. When you’ve got only a second, we might love so that you can price and assessment this podcast on iTunes or wherever you’re listening. It actually does assist extra individuals uncover this content material. I additionally wish to thank the friends who be a part of me every week, Beth Tabor, who volunteers her time to transcribe this podcast, and our complete McDermott Street Church household who make it doable for us to offer this Bible examine for you. Now, let’s exit and love like Jesus.
