This text is a part of the The Crossway Podcast sequence.
“Be Killing Sin, or It Will Be Killing You”
On this episode, Kelly Kapic discusses the works of John Owen and the way his perception into the corruption of the human coronary heart and the gospel’s energy to vary us from the within out, although written lots of of years in the past, are nonetheless really profound and useful for us immediately.
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Subjects Addressed in This Interview:
Matt Tully
Kelly, thanks a lot for becoming a member of me immediately on The Crossway Podcast.
Kelly Kapic
Oh, I’m pleased to be with you, Matt. Thanks.
Matt Tully
Right this moment we’re going to speak about John Owen and among the useful insights that he can provide to us immediately in terms of preventing towards sin as Christians. If folks have heard of John Owen, they’ve in all probability heard a quote that immediately pertains to this subject, and the quote is, “Be killing sin, or it is going to be killing you.” I’m wondering in the event you may simply mirror somewhat bit again to if you first heard that quote. Do you keep in mind if you first encountered that line and even what you considered that?
Kelly Kapic
I in all probability can’t inform you precisely once I first heard it or learn it, however I can inform you I’ve had somewhat little bit of a blended relationship with the quote. The thought of “be killing sin, or it is going to be killing you”—how that sounds depends upon your character and the way you’re feeling any given day. If you happen to’re actually passionate, you’ll be like, “Yeah! Be killing sin, or it is going to be killing you.” However truthfully, typically it simply sounds exhausting. And so I’ve wrestled with Owen and mentioned, “You imply you by no means get to cease?” There’s a sense through which he’s good within the sense of there is no such thing as a indifference to the facility of sin and temptation. It’s very fascinating: Owen hinted at this, however increasingly more New Testomony students speak about this in Romans, the place sin isn’t just like this factor; it’s a private entity. It’s a pressure, and it’s coming after you. There’s something about that. However Owen didn’t imply you possibly can’t giggle, you possibly can’t relaxation, you possibly can’t do any of that. However he did imply these things is actual, and issues that you simply assume, Ah, it’s not an enormous deal, the following factor you understand, you’re coping with fairly important issues.
Matt Tully
And there are simply so many examples of that as we glance round. Possibly we ourselves have felt this occur to us, the place you look within the rear view mirror and also you notice, How did I get right here? How did my sin get so massive, so in charge of me? And it actually is that this neglect of the every day preventing towards that sin and never giving up. However I do assume, and I wish to get into this in somewhat bit, there’s this stress of the persistent combat towards sin that Owen’s calling us to in that line, after which perhaps however, we regularly discuss, although, of resting within the gospel, resting in Christ’s righteousness for us, not our personal. So I believe I wish to discover a few of these dynamics that we will typically get tripped up in. However perhaps earlier than we get there, give us a refresher. Who was John Owen, and why was he vital within the broader scope of church historical past?
Kelly Kapic
That’s an awesome query. Owen was born in 1616, the yr, if I keep in mind proper, that Shakespeare died, and he died in 1683. So he truly lived throughout a reasonably wild seventeenth century, the place you’ve the English Civil Warfare and you’ve got all types of issues occurring. He’s truly vital in British historical past, partly as a result of he represents a few of these tensions. He preached the day after the beheading of the king. He was a chaplain for Oliver Cromwell, so he was proper within the combine. However then finally, when Cromwell was not there and it was his son, he opposed Richard Cromwell. And there’s some debate precisely how this appeared, however Owen thought Richard actually needed to take extra energy than he ought to, and Owen was towards it. So Owen bought kicked out and misplaced energy. So there are all types of various issues. He was vice chancellor of Oxford college. So he was a big ecclesial, academic, political determine. However most individuals immediately are studying him due to his actually vital theological contributions and in addition due to how these relate to pastoral points.
Matt Tully
If you happen to needed to boil down his theological contributions, what can be perhaps one or two of an important insights or matters that he was actually centered on in his life?
Kelly Kapic
That’s an awesome query. That’s tremendous laborious. For me, in all probability an important e book he ever wrote, for my part, and the primary e book that’s influenced my complete life known as Communion with God or Communion with the Father, with the Son, and with the Holy Spirit. It’s truly a for much longer seventeenth century title, however that’s the thought.
Matt Tully
They did love their lengthy titles.
Kelly Kapic
Oh man, yeah. They have been paragraphs typically, which is hilarious. However that’s an instance. Christians are Trinitarian, however Owen actually explored how Trinitarian theology pertains to all of life and that now we have communion with the one God, however the communion with the one God is at all times with the Father, with the Son, or with the Spirit. There’s no communion other than the individuals. And so he actually unpacks the love of God, the grace of Christ, and the fellowship of the Spirit, which pertains to what we’re speaking about immediately when it comes to sin and temptation. As a result of in the event you don’t have a strong Trinitarian theology and of the goodness and beauty and exercise of God, then if you begin speaking about sin and temptation, you actually scale back it to willpower in a self-help program. And so a part of what makes Owen, for my part—and significantly the works we’re speaking about—so vital is I actually assume Owen was doing early trendy psychology. He was superb at exploring the depth of God and the depth of the human particular person, after which attempting to convey these collectively. And regardless that his writing may be very troublesome to learn, I believe that’s the reason perhaps even despite how troublesome he’s to learn, folks nonetheless learn him as a result of they assume, How does he know my soul so properly?
Matt Tully
Wow. He was a pupil not simply of theology, not simply of the Bible, however of human nature and human tendencies. So how did you first get into studying Owen? Once more, he’s troublesome to learn. He’s this hundreds-year-old determine. What was your first introduction to studying his works?
Kelly Kapic
I learn some in school I believe, and I believe perhaps even somewhat earlier than that. I used to be in seminary, I knew I needed to do my PhD, and I needed to do it in theology. I had accomplished some German. I had accomplished Spanish in highschool, however I simply cheated, in order that doesn’t depend in any respect, proper? So I had accomplished some German in school, I had accomplished Greek and Hebrew and a few Latin. However the actuality is, I’m not nice at languages. I’m too outdated to actually inform, nevertheless it’s in all probability fairly clear I’ve dyslexia, regardless that I learn so much.
Matt Tully
Wow.
Kelly Kapic
So I inform you all that to say—and Herman Bavink; that is earlier than this complete Bavink renaissance. There was somewhat of his work translated, and I assumed, *Oh, I actually wish to do his anthropology due to issues I learn, however I simply realistically thought I mustn’t do my PhD within the Netherlands, working in Dutch major sources. And I began working beneath a man named Roger Nicole, who was an skilled within the Puritans, within the 90s, and he actually turned me on to Owen. And what I discovered in Owen was somebody who actually talked concerning the affections in methods I discovered very interesting. Working within the Reformed custom, I assumed that if I talked concerning the affections, ain’t no person gonna care. But when I say Owen says this, then folks must hear. So that’s what took me there. And even higher than I knew, his anthropology—his view of what it means to be human—was extremely wealthy for me to spend years learning.
Matt Tully
And he’s writing in English, presumably?
Kelly Kapic
Yeah. He additionally wrote some in Latin. Most of it’s in English, however Packer memorably mentioned his English is like Latin—the best way his sentences are structured and if you’re ready for the verb to point out up and all this sort of stuff. However sure, primarily, he’s writing in English. Though, on this Crossway sequence, there are some translated works or works that weren’t translated very properly, which are going to be in English that haven’t been.
Matt Tully
Retranslated from the unique Latin. So perhaps now let’s communicate somewhat bit to this particular work that we’re going to speak about immediately: The Mortification of Sin. This is only one of his works that pertains to sin and temptation that you simply guys have collected on this new quantity in Crossway’s large John Owen sequence. I believe it’s going to be forty volumes when it’s accomplished. Is that proper?
Kelly Kapic
Yeah. Simply forty small, 700-page volumes or no matter it’s.
Matt Tully
He was simply really a prolific writer. It was simply superb what he was capable of accomplish even simply on the writing aspect, not to mention all the opposite issues he was concerned with. However give us somewhat bit extra of the backstory of The Mortification of Sin.
Kelly Kapic
The transient model for Owen himself is that when he was at Oxford, this e book, which is comparatively transient, on mortification was initially given as homilies to school college students and even youthful in that day.
Matt Tully
So simply little talks.
Kelly Kapic
Little talks that ended up turning into this. And I believe that’s partly why they’re extra concrete than summary. And I believe that’s a part of their persevering with abiding attraction. Simply to provide us a textual content to base this in, in Colossians 3:9–10, that is what it says: “Don’t lie to 1 one other, seeing you’ve delay the outdated self.” Earlier than I learn extra, that’s what they imply by mortification: to place off the outdated self. “Seeing that you’ve delay the outdated self with its practices and placed on the brand new self”—that’s what they name vivification, and I’ll point out that in a minute—“which is being renewed within the data after the picture of its creator.” So I point out that to say, and the custom truly goes into the early church and Calvin talked so much about this, however the concept Owen is working with right here is the thought of mortification, and it’s to mortify, to place to demise, or that Pauline textual content that claims to “delay the outdated self,” “to die to sin”—these sorts of issues. And so what Owen is attempting to do on this work is search for ways in which sin is alive in us or attacking us or seducing us and to try to assault it, and that’s about placing it to demise. However the cause I learn that textual content from Paul is there are two sides, and Calvin and Owen each understood this. Finally, the Christian life isn’t just about placing sin to demise, however being made alive within the energy of the Spirit. And I assume I wish to point out that right here as a result of it’s very simple for us to finish up, particularly in a few of our circles, solely speaking about coping with the issue of sin. And that could be a truncated view. Can I offer you an instance? As a result of it sounds somewhat summary. So take, for instance, somebody that’s actually scuffling with slander or lust. I work with school college students. You are taking one thing like lust, and also you typically have these examples the place perhaps somebody is in a small group. It’s a man, and he says, “Man, there’s somebody in my workplace that I discover myself sometimes having inappropriate ideas about.” Properly, these must be mortified. These must be put to demise. However the issue is that in lots of our Christian circles, that turns into the entire thing. And that is the place dangerous pastoral recommendation is available in, the place it turns into like, “Properly, what it is advisable to do is that if she eats at 12:00, it is advisable to eat at 11:30. And when she walks on one aspect of the workplace, it is advisable to stroll on the opposite.” And typically there’s one thing to these issues, however the issue is that in the event you concentrate, the purpose then turns into to fake she doesn’t exist. Now, it’s true that in the event you can transfer from having inappropriate ideas to simply no ideas, that’s higher than inappropriate ideas. However that’s truly not the Christian imaginative and prescient. The Christian imaginative and prescient is to place to demise the inappropriate ideas—mortification—but in addition within the energy to be made alive. So the Christian imaginative and prescient in that type of circumstance isn’t just that you simply cease having inappropriate ideas, however that you simply begin affirming and seeing the dignity of this different human being, and also you search her good. You turn into her advocate in wholly applicable methods. It’s like slander. Is it higher that you simply cease saying dangerous issues about somebody and simply say nothing than slandering? Sure. However the purpose of sanctification is to place the slander to demise and be made alive within the Spirit to really convey contributions of affirmation, love, looking for the particular person’s good. And so I do wish to point out that different aspect as a result of it simply doesn’t get talked about sufficient. We wish to put sin to demise, however we’re Spirit-led, resurrection folks, and our purpose is shalom. Our purpose is definitely life, not simply denying. Does that make sense?
Matt Tully
Yeah, completely. And I believe that’s one of many assumptions somebody may have, and even simply seeing the title of that e book, The Mortification of Sin, it may sound like Owen’s actual solely focus goes to be on, “Don’t do that. Cease doing this dangerous factor.”
Kelly Kapic
And in that e book, lots of that’s his focus. So a part of what I’m attempting to do is give a bigger context to what Owen is saying. As a result of in the event you don’t have the bigger context, it actually can simply turn into that.
Matt Tully
And it does look like that’s only a perennial problem for us as Christians. We will learn verses and passages within the Bible that speak about fleeing temptation after which assume that’s all there’s to this combat towards sin. And that’s definitely a part of it. However as you’re saying, and as Owen would say, there’s much more in direction of pursuing better pleasure, better success in God and discovering that to be the motivation.
Kelly Kapic
And a part of what Owen talks about, particularly elsewhere in a number of of his simply stunning works on Christ and the glory of Christ, is, and you discover this even within the Westminster Shorter Catechism, repentance is popping away out of your sin, nevertheless it’s not merely that. It’s turning out of your sin and principally beholding the goodness and the great thing about Christ. And so we would like that full flip. That’s the way you begin to actually admire the goodness of grace. You’re not doing it to attain grace, however if you’re taking a look at your sin and also you’re partaking in your sin, you’re truly not understanding the depth and the wonder and the liberty of your grace. And by turning out of your sin Christ, you can begin to dwell a swish life.
Matt Tully
You write within the introduction to this e book, “Though Owen doesn’t use present labels, he’s coping with very up to date points reminiscent of despair, dependancy, apathy, and lust.” Are you able to share among the extra concrete insights or recommendation that he would possibly provide on a few of these very modern-sounding points that all of us really feel like we battle with at completely different factors?
Kelly Kapic
I simply talked about an instance of lust. I jotted down a high ten, if you wish to hear.
Matt Tully
Yeah, that may be nice.
Kelly Kapic
It’s a high ten reflections on Owen, as a result of in some methods, that is an abbreviated model of what he does within the work. Let’s no less than discover a few of these. Possibly this may assist folks. When Owen’s speaking about mortification and giving recommendation, one of many very first issues is that he says, “Look at the signs of sin.” And the explanation he’s saying that’s it is advisable to know what the precise downside is so you possibly can handle it. Lots of people immediately can expertise the issue of going to the physician, and earlier than they get out 4 sentences, the physician’s already writing a prescription. They see a rash in your arm and so they’re like, “Okay, I’ve bought an answer,” and also you wish to inform them there are different issues occurring in your physique that matter, however they don’t wish to hear. And that’s a part of what Owen is saying. It’s important to be very cautious that you simply don’t simply instantly cope with a floor difficulty when there’s one thing deeper. The truth is, I’ll offer you an instance right here, because you requested about lust. Pornography is an enormous, large problem in our day. Once more, I work in an undergraduate establishment, so you possibly can think about among the complexities right here. However it’s fascinating that I’ve now realized sometimes, once I’m working with a pupil, I keep in mind one time asking questions—and this can be a actual problem, and I’m not attempting to make mild of it in any respect—however as I requested extra questions, I ended up saying—and also you guys, I assume, don’t know me, however I promise I’m fairly loving—however I truly ended up saying, “I believe you’re slothful.” And what was fascinating is that if I’m like, “Man, you might be scuffling with lust, you’re scuffling with pornography,” it’s like, “Oh yeah. Completely.” However once I name somebody slothful or lazy, now they’re ticked at me.
Matt Tully
That hits dwelling otherwise.
Kelly Kapic
Properly, and it’s very fascinating, and right here’s the explanation why I say that. Sure, clearly the very last thing is an issue, nevertheless it turned, on this case, and I’m not saying that is true in each case, a part of it’s you understand what’s actually laborious? Feeling overwhelmed by all of the work you need to do, and attempting to make little bits of progress, it’s a lot simpler to enter a darkish place and to flee. You understand what’s actually laborious? The braveness to ask somebody on a date. What’s a lot simpler is that this different factor. And so I’m not attempting to belittle it. I’m not attempting to say these will not be addictive issues, and we’ve bought to concentrate on physiological realities. I’m conscious of all of that, nevertheless it’s fascinating that typically saying, “Hey, there is likely to be one thing even deeper. And if we’re simply worrying about your web filters, we’re not going to get to this. However by beginning to handle and perceive the deeper points past these signs, then we will begin to handle it.” In order that’s one instance. Possibly I shouldn’t do a high ten as a result of we’d be right here all day. Analyzing the signs of sin is an instance and begin to dig and be sure to’re coping with the foundation of the issue, as a result of for all of us, it could be completely different. And we simply must watch out that we’re not just like the doctor who doesn’t hear however instantly begins to try to put a balm on one thing that will require bodily exercise or one thing. Spiritually, the reply could also be that you simply don’t must memorize one other Bible verse; it is advisable to get extra sleep each evening.
Matt Tully
I used to be going to say that appears like there are even insights from the broader secular psychology and counseling world that may align with that. And that’s one of many stuff you spotlight within the e book is that Owen had a really strong whole-person theology the place he understood that physique, soul, and spirit have been all concerned in our lives as Christians, our pursuit of holiness, and our stumbling in sin. And so now we have to assume holistically in terms of a few of these issues.
Kelly Kapic
Yeah. Simply when it comes to his holistic view, which he actually tries to take the thoughts, the need, the affections, and even our bodily our bodies significantly. And I believe that holistic view is essential, as a result of completely different traditions decide a kind of and spotlight it. The Reformed custom tends to be extra like, “Let’s concentrate on the thoughts and the reworking of the thoughts.” Even how we learn Paul on that tends to be purely rational. In different traditions, it’s all concerning the affections and let’s stir the feelings and transfer a few of that. With others, it’s the need and fascinating the need. And everyone has Bible verses to help them. So the fact is that a part of what Owen at his finest is doing is, “Hey, we have to have interaction the entire particular person, and this can be a good factor.” And so we have to stir the thoughts, provoke the affections, renew the need, and all of this in and thru the facility of Spirit. Expertise issues for Owen as a result of pneumatology, or the work of the Spirit, issues, if that is sensible.
Matt Tully
Possibly one different fast query about perhaps insights he might need. Converse somewhat bit to what counsel or recommendation he would possibly give associated to despair and nervousness. These are two trendy matters which are simply clearly so prevalent and appear to be on the rise in our tradition immediately. What would possibly he say in response to studying about that if he have been right here immediately?
Kelly Kapic
Properly, it appears, from what we will inform, that this was a problem for Owen himself. Even from his conversion story, plainly he was scuffling with despair. However then when he was even older, he had eleven youngsters, and ten of them died fairly younger. His first spouse died with these youngsters. The eleventh daughter had a wedding that didn’t work. She ended up shifting in with him after which dying of consumption. Generally we predict solely this age is an age stuffed with nervousness. He’s coping with the civil conflict and a few of these issues. So a part of what Owen, at his finest when he’s coping with these items, does is he’s snug being trustworthy about how laborious issues are, however he actually desires to attract your focus to the great thing about Christ. And I believe partly it’s as a result of there’s lots of devastation on this world. And the best way to get out of despair is to not persuade your self that your circumstances are higher, as a result of perhaps they simply suck. Possibly, truthfully, they’re not good. You continue to discover this so much in Christian circles, particularly evangelical circles, the place it’s type of like low-cost, plastic Christianity—“Upwards and onwards! All the things’s good! Reward God on a regular basis!” All the things is probably not good. So the explanation you don’t must be caught in despair will not be as a result of your circumstances are altering; it’s as a result of you’ve a really variety God. And so for Owen, it’s specializing in the glory of Christ and his solidarity with us in our struggling, taking over the depths of temptation however by no means giving in, and rising. So the demise, the resurrection, and for Owen, the continued heavenly intercession of Christ, these are what give us hope and assist us resist despair.
Matt Tully
One different vital factor to notice that got here out as I used to be studying your work right here and, clearly, interacting with the broader sequence as a complete is the vital position of the Holy Spirit in Owen’s theology. How would you summarize his view of the Holy Spirit’s position as we pursue holiness and combat towards our personal indwelling sin?
Kelly Kapic
It’s fascinating. There was a scholar who as soon as argued, and these are overgeneralizations, however perhaps there’s one thing to them that helps folks, however he argued you possibly can study so much a few explicit theologian and a practice by which particular person of the Trinity they focus most on. And this scholar argued: Augustine, one thing concerning the Father; Luther, it’s actually concerning the Son crucified; and for the Puritans, he mentioned it’s the Holy Spirit. And the thought was simply that the Puritans have been so desirous about God’s current, ongoing work in believers’ lives. And so in that method, they actually took human expertise significantly—typically too significantly. That’s the place the problem turned the place abruptly you possibly can turn into overly introspective, and abruptly points like the peace of mind of salvation turned extra of a problem typically, regardless that they’d the theology to make it much less of a problem. So with an elevated consciousness of the Spirit, you’re not simply affirming one thing concerning the previous, however you’re affirming that God is current in us working. In order that’s fairly thrilling and fairly hopeful and raises all types of fascinating questions. And a part of Owen’s works, and these are additionally printed in that Crossway sequence (some have and extra might be), is Owen is responding to extremes right here. On the one hand, he’s fearful concerning the rationalist of his day, who principally denied the Spirit is an individual of the Trinity. And they also undermine it and so they say, “No, no, no. The Spirit is just like the breath of God. It’s the wind of God. It’s an attribute of God. The Spirit will not be an individual.” And Owen’s going to reject that. Then again, Owen rejects what, in his day, have been referred to as the fanatics, who talked concerning the Spirit in such a method that abruptly Scripture appeared undermined. Generally, no less than in Owen’s estimation, they talked concerning the Spirit in a method that undermined the importance and centrality of Jesus. So relatively than changing into rationalist and denying the Spirit, or changing into what he would name an fanatic who reduces the whole lot pertaining to the Spirit in a method that undermines the Father and the Son, we wish to emphasize the Spirit who’s current and dealing, at all times drawing us to the Son that we would relaxation within the love of the Father. So it’s at all times Trinitarian. However I believe Owen has so much to say, particularly to these of us within the Reformed custom that, for numerous causes, have been very nervous concerning the Spirit. And we shouldn’t be. And it shouldn’t simply be like, “The Spirit again then did one thing within the authors of Scripture” or “The Spirit saved us, however then principally will not be concerned anymore.” We’ve bought to have a extra snug relationship with the continued work of the Spirit in our lives.
Matt Tully
And that’s one thing, going again to what you talked about in the beginning of our dialog, simply the robustly current Trinitarian position that he has in the best way he views God in our lives immediately as Christians is so recent, so refreshing, so related even for us immediately, as we do have a tendency to choose and select the person who we’re most centered on. Possibly a pair ultimate questions. Converse to the particular person proper now who would say, “I’d like to strive studying this e book. I’ve heard that Owen’s somewhat difficult to learn, however you’re saying that this Mortification of Sin was written for younger folks initially and isn’t that lengthy.” What can be some recommendation you’d provide a few studying plan or a schedule or an strategy that is likely to be a useful method for the one who’s new to Owen to really get began?
Kelly Kapic
With the quantity we’re speaking about, in the event that they purchase it, don’t be intimidated that it’s massive, however inside it there are 4 completely different books, and I’d simply strive the primary one on mortification of sin. And what I’d do, and lots of people have discovered this fairly useful, is to learn it in little bits. And I imply like strive three pages a day, or the times that you simply learn. After which in the event you’re in a small group, speak about what you learn. However a part of the explanation to learn, particularly this work on mortification of sin, slowly is it’s like assembly with a counselor. And you may’t learn fifty pages and let it sink into you and do among the trustworthy reflection, and simply even reflecting on God, in that method. So the purpose right here will not be amount. That is good to your soul, so be affected person with your self. Simply learn three or 4 pages or two to 3 pages. And in the event you lose the concept it is advisable to learn so much, I do assume you’ll discover it’s superb. I’ve accomplished a PhD on Owen and I’ve written so much. Once I learn a few of his work, I’ll learn like two pages and I simply must stroll round afterwards. I’m like, “Wow. Is that true what he’s saying? How does that relate to me? How does that affect how I’m seeing a few of these different conditions?” Possibly it’s not even my very own sin on one thing, nevertheless it’s helped me see one other dynamic. So it’s actually good, however cease attempting to deal with it like you possibly can pound by means of it like a novel.
Matt Tully
Yeah, completely. I used to be studying, I believe it was within the introduction to one in every of these books, and also you shared the story of a time when perhaps you have been working in your PhD on the time, and also you have been speaking along with your spouse about what John Owen mentioned yesterday. You have been referring to him as if he was nonetheless alive and chatting with you over espresso. Are you continue to partaking with him frequently? Do you continue to discover that there’s a religious profit so that you can be studying him commonly?
Kelly Kapic
Owen stays a big voice in my life. I’m doing lots of different issues. However even proper now, one other Crossway e book that myself and one other youthful Owen scholar, Ty Kieser, are doing for Crossway known as Owen Among the many Theologians. And so in every chapter, it’s Owen and Augustine on a selected subject, or Owen and Didymus the Blind, an early church father. In order that’s actually enjoyable as a result of Owen has actually recent, fascinating issues to say. It doesn’t imply we at all times agree, nevertheless it’s simply fascinating. And there’s a lot relevance for church historical past, but in addition for our lives. So yeah, he stays one of many key voices in my life, for positive.
Matt Tully
Kelly, thanks a lot for introducing us to this unbelievable little e book and this unbelievable theologian who’s, as you mentioned, so related for us immediately, even residing within the twenty-first century. We admire it.
Kelly Kapic
You bought it. Thanks for having me.
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