Is there a dichotomy between the wrathful God of the Previous Testomony and the merciful God of the New Testomony? On this episode, Wes McAdams and Marco Arroyo discover how our understanding of God’s nature can profoundly form our personal identities and relationships. The dialog additionally tackles the essential difficulty of easy methods to reconcile God’s love and style together with his judgment and wrath in opposition to sin.
By way of a considerate and nuanced dialogue, Wes and Marco unpack biblical ideas which are central to understanding God’s true nature. They discover the depths of God’s mercy, grace, and forgiveness, and the way these attributes aren’t restricted to the New Testomony however permeate the complete biblical narrative. Additionally they make clear the significance of God’s wrath and judgment, not as contradictory to his love, however as a vital expression of his holiness and justice. The dialog emphasizes the necessity to view God’s character and actions by means of the lens of his final goodness and need for restoration.
Marco Arroyo is the preacher for the Seagoville Church of Christ and the host of the “In Between Sundays” YouTube channel. With a ardour for serving to individuals see Jesus in each side of life, Marco brings a singular perspective to the dialogue, drawing from his personal journey of understanding and embracing the true nature of God. His experiences and insights provide a relatable and refreshing strategy to wrestling with advanced theological ideas.
Welcome to the Radically Christian Bible Examine Podcast. I’m your host, Wes McAdams. Right here now we have one purpose: Study to like like Jesus. On right this moment’s present, we’re going to speak concerning the mercy and the goodness of God. My visitor right this moment is Marco Arroyo. He’s the preacher for the Seagoville Church of Christ. He’s additionally the host of the “In Between Sundays” YouTube channel. I actually encourage you to take a look at his movies. He’s doing an ideal work there.
I need to start right this moment by studying from 1 John 4, beginning with verse 7. John says this: “Beloved, allow us to love each other, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and is aware of God. Anybody who doesn’t love doesn’t know God, as a result of God is love. On this the love of God was made manifest amongst us, that God despatched his solely Son into the world, in order that we would stay by means of him. In that is love, not that now we have liked God however that he liked us and despatched his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so liked us, we additionally ought to like each other. Nobody has ever seen God; if we love each other, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.”
As at all times, I hope that this dialog is pleasant and inspiring, however most of all, I hope that it helps all of us study to like like Jesus.
WES: Marco Arroyo, welcome to the podcast, Brother.
MARCO: I’m actually pleased to be with you, man. Actually am glad to be speaking to you.
WES: Nicely, I’m so pleased to lastly have you ever on the podcast. I’ve been watching loads of your YouTube movies these days, and I actually encourage individuals to go try your YouTube channel since you’re doing such an ideal job and it’s such a singular channel, and also you form of spotlight various things which are occurring on the planet and have a look at it by means of a Biblical, godly lens, and I believe it’s actually cool what you’re doing.
MARCO: Yeah, it’s actually encouraging to listen to that. That’s all I’m making an attempt to do. You understand, the identify of the channel is “In Between Sundays,” and that’s actually the thought behind it. I simply need individuals to have the ability to have a look at the issues which are occurring in our lives or on the planet in between Sundays and to see Jesus in that. And, , I really like the concept of ‑‑ we’re studying to like like Jesus within the Radically Christian Bible Examine podcast, and it’s form of the same thought there, too: Simply see Jesus in the whole lot, and we actually can within the Christian life, so I actually respect you saying that.
WES: That’s superior. Nicely, we had espresso not too way back and we talked about loads of various things. One of many issues that we talked about is that I believe we’re alleged to be altering as individuals. As followers of Jesus, we’re alleged to be continually rising and turning into totally different individuals and permitting the Spirit of God to remodel us, and that in all probability implies that our view of God, our theology goes to alter over time. It’s going to evolve. It’s going to be hopefully higher so we’re going to have a greater understanding of who God is and his character and his nature now than we had earlier than, so I’d love to simply begin with that. How has your theology, your view of God, his character and his nature ‑‑ how has that modified over time?
MARCO: If I needed to provide the brief reply, I’ll say God has been getting higher and higher through the years. He’s been getting higher and higher. Now, simply to preface it, loads of the instances once I speak about like what my development course of has been in my understanding of God and I begin from the very starting, there have been many individuals who I’ve been speaking to the place they form of go, like, “New‑convert Marco was form of a dummy,” and I agree with you; he was form of a dummy. However for each response that I’ve had like that, there has additionally been a, “You understand, the best way that you simply used to view God” ‑‑ and there have been problematic ways in which I considered God once I was a more moderen Christian ‑‑ “I used to view God that approach, too, and I assumed I used to be the one one,” and that at all times lifts my spirits a lot, so I’m very happy to, like, share my foolishness on this space, largely as a result of it’s such a testomony to God’s goodness on me.
And so, earlier than I turned a Christian, it was, “God is nice on a regular basis,” and if I needed to get actual loopy with it, “On a regular basis, God is nice.” And, , it’s the fundamental stuff individuals say: God is love, John 3:16, issues like that. However once I began to turn into a Christian, I used to be within the means of learning the Bible. I used to be studied with for like a yr, and I used to be in highschool on the time, in Los Angeles, California the place I used to be raised, and that’s once I began to be confronted with the fact of my sin, and I hadn’t actually taken that so severely earlier than.
And so once I turned a Christian, I used to be very, very new in confronting the fact of my sin and who I used to be in relation to God. And so, then, my concept of God was nearer to, God is nice, however you higher get it collectively quick; in any other case, God can be simply as readily ‑‑ he’ll punish you as readily as he was to save lots of you; and as fast as he was to save lots of you, he’ll simply as shortly destroy you. And it’s so humorous as a result of, not very lengthy after that, I got here into contact with “Sinners within the Palms of an Offended God,” that, , 1700s sermon, Jonathan Edwards, and there’s a line in there in direction of the top. One of many quotes of it’s, “And there’s no different motive to be given why you haven’t dropped into hell because you arose within the morning however that God’s hand has held you up.” And day by day I used to be considering, God is so good and merciful to me, however that was the concept I had of how God considered me. It’s like this loathsome creature is form of what Jonathan Edwards talks about, and he so badly needs to punish you. He’s form of ready so that you can, , commit sin and stuff like that.
And it took some time, and I used to be telling you that after loads of research of the Previous Testomony, my understanding of God improved so very a lot. I keep in mind, at one level, considering, I don’t suppose I’m making it to heaven more often than not, and I’m making an attempt so exhausting to be extra like Jesus each single day, and I’d learn Hebrews 11, and just like the very subsequent factor ‑‑ subsequent neatest thing under Jesus are these individuals, Hebrews 11. And so I’m telling myself like, okay, effectively, I need to examine these individuals, then. After which I begin to research into their lives, and people had been some problematic individuals. They’re mendacity and plotting and scheming and deception, all this stuff. And I’m going, so how did these individuals make it? I imply, I’ve carried out some foolish issues, however like in 1 Samuel 21, David is like spitting on himself and pretending to be loopy, and that’s not even the worst of the stuff that he did. And so I noticed their lives, their salvation ‑‑ they weren’t depending on the extent of goodness that that they had attained to, they’d reached, however the goodness of the God who saved them regardless of them, regardless of who they had been.
And so, earlier than, it was, how does God really feel about sin? He hates it, needs to punish it, and he’ll punish it. He’s in opposition to it. And so then I assumed, effectively, I wrestle and I sin. I do that always, so then which means God feels that approach about me. And over time, my view finally turned, God provides mercy as a result of he’s good, and he needs to save lots of me, not as a result of I’m good, as a result of he’s good. It’s not contingent on my perfection. It’s truly regardless of my imperfection, God needs to save lots of me. And, man, each time I take into consideration the years that I spent not God that approach ‑‑ even now I struggle again tears serious about it as a result of God is so extremely good, and that’s why I say, in brief, he’s simply getting higher and higher as the times go by. He’s getting so significantly better each single day as I come to grasp him extra.
WES: Yeah. You understand, it’s humorous, as you had been speaking how a lot our theology impacts our anthropology and even our private id and the way we take into consideration ourselves ‑‑ it’s so fascinating. As you had been speaking, I keep in mind having a dialog, once I first began preaching, and somebody stated ‑‑ it could have been me who stated that once we take into consideration ourselves in relation to God, it’s like we’re a flea. After which another person stated, no, no, no, it’s like we’re ‑‑ it’s like we’re the small toe of a flea. And another person stated, no, no, no, it’s like we’re the hangnail on the small toe of a flea. And we do ‑‑ now we have been taught, I believe, or now we have by some means been educated to suppose that we’re this, you stated, loathsome creature, and I believe the extra we perceive scripture, the extra we perceive the Good Information story, it doesn’t paint humanity that approach. It doesn’t even paint sinful humanity that approach. It doesn’t paint us as being the hangnail on the small toe of a flea. It paints us as being the head of God’s creation. That sure, we’ve sinned and we’ve fallen brief, however God loves us a lot that he needs to redeem us and restore us to the place the place he created us to be. He needs us to rule and reign with him. He needs to glorify us. He needs to exalt us, and Jesus is that plan. In any other case, it doesn’t even make sense. The Good Information, the gospel, doesn’t even make sense if we actually are as horrible as we’ve been taught to consider ourselves. And so I believe a proper understanding of God does assist us have a proper understanding of ourselves, perhaps.
MARCO: Yeah. The apparent verse with that is John 3:16, and the best way I’d learn John 3:16 was, effectively, that love that God had for me is what introduced me to my preliminary level of salvation, and now that I’m a Christian, it’s on me, and it’s utterly on me, and so God is simply ready across the nook for me to fail in order that he can punish me as a result of that’s what he does, and that basically did have an effect on me for a very long time. You understand, earlier on once I was a Christian, there was ‑‑ like virtually immediately once I turned a Christian, with all of the sweetness, there was virtually on the spot bitterness and fear due to that, and it’s so unhappy to consider that. I keep in mind once I was baptized there have been Christians who informed me ‑‑ they go, like, “Get pleasure from this second. Benefit from the purity that you simply really feel on this second.” And I don’t understand how they meant that precisely, however the best way I took it was, it is a fleeting factor and really quickly I’m going to return to my common life, and my habits, my weaknesses, my shortcomings weren’t chained to the water ‑‑ contained in the water of the baptistry, and so that basically did current itself in a extremely ugly approach.
I acquired deflated in a short time after I turned a Christian. I didn’t, , go away God or something, however I used to be deflated as quickly as I began to be confronted with all these shortcomings. And I didn’t understand that John 3:16 isn’t just what brings me to salvation at one level, however it’s my complete relationship with God. Jesus did extra than simply make provisions to permit individuals to as soon as ‑‑ to initially be saved. You understand, you learn Hebrews 2:18. He aids those that are tempted. Each single day, it is a ‑‑ as we are saying, a day by day stroll with Christ, and it’s all made potential due to the holy love that he provides to us. So, yeah, Jesus didn’t do what he did for fleas or hangnails on fleas.
WES: I’ve heard so many individuals say, through the years, that it could be higher if somebody drowned within the baptistry than that they get raised up after which stay a life the place they’re going to inevitably proceed to sin ultimately, that that’s probably the most forgiven ‑‑ I’ve heard individuals say issues like that. “That is probably the most forgiven you’ll ever be,” or “probably the most cleansed you’ll ever be,” or “the purest you’ll ever be.” And I’ve preached from the pulpit a number of instances that that’s nonsense, that I’m as forgiven proper now, as I sit right here, as I used to be 20 years in the past once I was baptized. I’m simply as forgiven now as I’ve ever been due to the continuing forgiveness of Jesus, that he’s, proper now, my excessive priest. He’s interceding for me, and his sacrifice is as soon as for all, not just for all individuals, however for all of my sin.
And that modifications the best way ‑‑ actually, that leads me to my subsequent query, is, how does this concept of God ‑‑ as your understanding of God, your theology, because it has continued to develop, and your appreciation of the goodness and the mercy of God, how does that have an effect on different areas of our life? I believe so typically we compartmentalize our life and we take into consideration our theology simply as being our “non secular life,” quote‑unquote, and never recognizing that, truly, our theology and having good theology, it impacts each space of our life. So how has that affected you and the way have you ever seen good theology or unhealthy theology have an effect on each space of individuals’s lives?
MARCO: Nicely, I’ve undoubtedly been on each side of the unhealthy and good theology. I’ve undoubtedly been on each side. I keep in mind, within the week once I turned a Christian, that sense of being deflated occurred a pair instances. I keep in mind the primary time I felt the necessity to avert my eyes. I felt so deflated, and I assumed, there goes that purity that I had once I was baptized. There’s a model of that I first heard in Costa Rica once I was doing mission work one time. They had been baptizing some individuals in waters which have been identified to have both crocodiles or gators, no matter Costa Rica has. And so they go, , if one in every of these guys will get eaten by this stuff, that’s the most effective time, ? And I get the thought means of it, however it’s so flawed on the similar time. I keep in mind somebody smashed the window of my automobile once I was a brand new Christian, the very first week. And, I imply, I had an concept of who it was, and once I inform you ‑‑ I needed to go mafia on this man. I keep in mind I used to be so mad, and I restrained myself. I didn’t curse. I didn’t do something that I wanted to repent for, however even then I felt so deflated that, ugh, there goes that purity. Even the impulse for uncontrolled anger, I simply ‑‑ there goes that, too.
And so the best way that the unhealthy theology on this space and our view of God would have an effect on our lives is it simply robs you of the consolation of being certain of your relationship with God. I can’t even inform you what number of nights I spent going, I’m simply actually undecided. I do know that I turned a Christian at one level, however I’m simply undecided right this moment. God is nice on a regular basis, however he’s not going to be so good to me if I fall wanting who he’s, and I completely fall wanting who he’s. So all day lengthy, I ‑‑ right here’s what this unhealthy theology did to me. I used to be repenting all day lengthy, all day lengthy, and never as a result of I used to be truly sinning that a lot, however any single time I considered myself, I simply considered my weaknesses, my shortcomings, and who I used to be in mild of who God is, and I simply repented all day lengthy. I’d repent once I heard a sermon and realized one thing new. I imply, I used to be continually on this distress. To say that that’s unhealthy theology is truthfully an understatement. It robbed me of a lot pleasure. It’ll rob you of peace. It’ll rob you of blessings that God has so that you can stroll in and to get pleasure from however you suppose that these aren’t for you as a result of, effectively, you’re not utterly like Jesus at this level of your life.
And so at any time when I take into consideration that, I simply suppose reward be to God, as a result of over time of studying and sincere consideration of myself in mild of God’s Phrase, the reality is simply inevitable. My view of Christianity has gone from “It doesn’t get any higher than this” to “You simply do not know how good God is. You don’t have any concept how good he’s, Marco.” And I can solely think about our Father new‑Christian Marco and going, “You don’t have any concept how good it’s going to be.” And these phrases are true, Wes: There’s subsequently now no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus, who don’t stroll in line with the flesh, however in line with the Spirit. Our God is so good, and the information that you could ‑‑ you’ll be able to know that there isn’t any condemnation for you in Christ Jesus ‑‑ I can really say day by day I’m happier. Every single day I’m extra joyful. Each single day I’m extra grateful. The extra I study who God is, I learn the way good he’s, and day by day will get higher. It really ‑‑ it’s not only a saying that I’d say to a brand new Christian. Every single day will get sweeter. It’s the most effective. Our God is so, so good.
WES: Yeah. Nicely, I take into consideration how timid it makes us once we are continually afraid that God hasn’t forgiven us or that we’ve, , tousled an excessive amount of or one thing like that and the way we turn into self‑absorbed and we don’t attain out. I used to be considering that it’s wonderful the life to which we’re known as in Christ, to be brave and to lose our life, if vital, to not have any worry of demise, however what number of Christians are frightened of demise or the second coming of Jesus as a result of they’re afraid, “Oh, , I’m undecided.” I’ve identified so many older Christians who’ve walked with the Lord for many years they usually get to the top of their life they usually’re apprehensive, “I haven’t carried out sufficient, I’ve tousled an excessive amount of. Perhaps I’m not likely saved,” and they also’re frightened of the judgment of God after they ought to have the ability to stay their life with such Godly abandon, the place we’re saying, “I’m not afraid of dying. I’m not afraid.”
So whether or not you’re younger or previous, we ought to have the ability to go to a harmful place or we ought to have the ability to put our life on the road with none worry as a result of we all know, “I’m going to be resurrected to everlasting life. What can man do to me?” And we’re not afraid of demise as a result of we all know that our God loves us and he’s going to lift us to life. However we turn into so afraid and fearful and timid and self‑absorbed when it’s all about, , “I’ve acquired to make it possible for I don’t make this offended God much more offended with me,” and “I’ve acquired to make it possible for I keep on his good facet,” in order that we don’t stay our lives with this brave, fearless abandon the place we’re not afraid of the issues that the world is afraid of.
MARCO: Can I touch upon that being self‑absorbed for a second? Right here’s a method it’ll maintain you again if in case you have that flawed view of God. You’ll turn into self‑absorbed, and though that that’s flawed, right here’s what you’ll do, and also you gained’t understand that you simply’re being self‑absorbed. You’ll cease your self from being a blessing to Christians who want you. You’ll say, “I’m unqualified. I acquired all these issues. I can’t give any counsel to this individual. I can’t be of any encouragement to them. I don’t even know if I must be praying for them,” or one thing like that. However you’ll inform your self that you simply’re unqualified otherwise you’ll do that. You’ll go, “Earlier than I may also help all them, I’ve acquired to assist myself. I’ve acquired issues of my very own. I’ve acquired my very own weaknesses to kind out. So earlier than I may also help this different Christian who’s perhaps a more moderen Christian than I’m and desires somebody to form of take them by the hand, that’s not going to be me. I’ve acquired to seek out one of many good Christians or virtually‑good Christians to try this.”
So that you’ll suppose that you simply’re prioritizing your relationship with God, however you’re not. You’re truly simply being self‑absorbed due to this flawed concept about God, and it’s robbing you from fulfilling the second best commandment. So in case your relationship with God is your precedence, then the individuals round you will be your precedence. However when you suppose that, , since you don’t have all of it collectively, that your relationship with God is consistently in shambles, then why would you assist anybody? Why would you’ve gotten that impulse? So it’s a extremely harmful factor to view God on this incorrect approach. It’ll rob you from doing the second best factor we’re right here to do.
WES: Yeah. Nicely, it’s so vital that we embrace this concept that we’re justified by religion in Christ. Sure, baptism is vital. Sure, repentance is vital. Sure, completely. However our loyalty, our allegiance to King Jesus is the premise on which we’re saved, which suggests it’s not on the premise of my works. I’ve not carried out sufficient. I’ve not been ok. I’ve sinned. I’ve fallen brief. However my covenant relationship with God relies on what Jesus has carried out for me, and once we embrace that, then we are able to really imagine what Peter says, that we’re a royal nation, a royal priesthood. We’re a royal priesthood that ‑‑ to your level, I’m a priest. I’m a holy priest within the Lord. I can serve within the identify of the Lord and do these good works within the identify of the Lord by the ability of the Holy Spirit, not as a result of I’m good, not as a result of I’ve attained some standing or as a result of I’ve carried out the whole lot proper, however due to who he’s, as a result of he’s gracious and merciful.
And it does ‑‑ it modifications the best way that we love individuals day in and time out and what we do and our braveness and our willingness to do these issues, as a result of it’s not about us; it’s about them and it’s concerning the Lord and it’s about our alternative to attach them to the Lord and to be a conduit for the blessings of God, and that each one comes all the way down to having proper theology.
MARCO: Yeah, it’s so extremely vital. You understand, there’s a approach that you could reply this appropriately, however when you had been to ask somebody, like, “Why are you saved?” If the reply is all “I” and “me,” then you definately’re answering the flawed approach. Perhaps you’ll be able to say, “Nicely, I’ve obtained, , forgiveness,” you are able to do it that approach. Once more, there’s a technique to do it, I suppose, however the actuality is it must be 99.9%, if not 100%, “As a result of that is what God did. That is what God did by means of Christ for me.” And I ‑‑ once more, I’m not, , preaching Calvinism or one thing like that, however I clearly have a duty to, , determine to be in a relationship with God, nonetheless you need to put that, , to have the religion ‑‑ grace by means of religion, completely. However who’s accountable for the victory? Who’s accountable for the enjoyment? Who’s accountable for that? It’s God. It’s completely God, and it’s not even shut. It’s not even shut.
Fortunately, God doesn’t have perfection as a requirement. God goes, “No, I do know you’re not good. That’s why Jesus got here to the Earth. It’s due to that, so I can work with that each earlier than you’re a Christian and if you are a Christian. I’m highly effective sufficient.” I want there have been a verse within the Bible that stated, “My grace is enough for you; my power is made good in your weak point.” There’s! And what a good looking concept! God says, “You’re weak, you’re imperfect, you’ve gotten all these issues. I can do one thing with that. I can do wonderful issues with that!” I imply, what pleasure! Oh man, I really feel a lot pleasure at any time when I take into consideration that concept. God can do one thing with me regardless of me! Regardless of me!
WES: Yeah, we don’t understand, I believe, generally that our unhealthy theology, our workspace theology, our legalistic theology, it robs God of glory and gratitude and thanksgiving, that it’s like if a guardian or an uncle or a grandparent gave somebody an inheritance of one million {dollars} or this big property, if the one that obtained that inheritance ‑‑ and naturally they needed to signal on the dotted line, they needed to ‑‑ no matter it was that they needed to do to obtain the inheritance, in the event that they stated, “Nicely, why do you’ve gotten this inheritance,” they usually stated, “Nicely, as a result of I did the entire authorized necessities to get my inheritance.” Like, no, that’s not why you’ve gotten this inheritance. You’ve got this inheritance as a result of you’ve gotten a gracious, a benevolent, a beneficiant benefactor who gave this to you. That’s why you’ve gotten it, due to their character, due to their nature, in order that they get all of the glory, in order that they get all of the credit score. We will’t even take a minuscule quantity of credit score for receiving a present that was given to us. Sure, in fact we needed to obtain it. Sure, in fact we needed to put our religion in Jesus, however that’s only a matter of responding in religion to the provide that’s been made to us. And I believe generally we don’t acknowledge that that’s what we’re doing. After we get all wrapped up in, “Nicely, I did this and I did this,” and, “Nicely, have I carried out all of this stuff,” and, “Nicely, I didn’t do that and I haven’t been good in that approach,” we’re robbing God of his glory and the gratitude that’s due him.
MARCO: Yeah, however Wes, I used my best pen to signal the factor, and I made certain my writing was tremendous clear, probably the most lovely cursive I’ve ever utilized in my life. Doesn’t that rely for one thing? That’s what I sound like once I begin to put the blame ‑‑ or not the blame, however the glory begins to return to me, or I begin to put the stress, the whole lot on my shoulders. I’m going, effectively, I suppose I higher carry out my best pen, or I suppose I higher ensure my phrases, my letters are tremendous clear and legible. It simply sounds so foolish when you concentrate on it, however, once more, you’ve acquired to be serious about what God has carried out, what he’s doing, in any other case you’re going to fixate on what you see, and what you see is principally what you’re doing. So I get why individuals come to that time and why they keep there. The clear resolution is you’ve acquired to study, you’ve acquired to fixate, you’ve acquired to focus extra on who God is and what he has carried out, and also you’ll perceive what he does, even right this moment.
WES: Yeah. Let’s form of change gears just a bit bit. We’re speaking concerning the mercy of God, the grace of God, the forgiveness and the pardon that God provides, however what about his wrath? What about his judgment? It’s plain that that’s a part of the character and the character of God. It’s exhausting to learn. It’s fascinating you stated the Previous Testomony actually helped you alter your thoughts on the character and nature of God as a result of so many individuals particularly learn the Previous Testomony they usually say, “Nicely, what about his wrath? What about his anger? What about his judgment?” And, to me, I believe that that is pivotal to excellent news. It’s a part of the excellent news of who God is. However let’s speak about that for a second. What about his wrath and his judgment is pivotal to grasp the character and the character of God?
MARCO: Nicely, , if Marco from, let’s say, eight years in the past would have been listening to our dialog, I’d have been saying, when are they going to speak about wrath? When are they going to speak about punishment? I imply, you higher discuss concerning the different facet, in any other case you should not imagine in that, or one thing like that, and that’s very foolish to consider that. However generally I’d suppose prefer it’s a liberal ‑‑ previous Marco would say that the place Marco is right this moment is at this liberal excessive that ignores God’s judgment and wrath, however that’s so removed from the reality. God’s judgment and wrath are the very fundamental and sobering reminder that God at all times has been, and God continues to be critical about sin. We must ‑‑ each single Christian ought to grasp this, and it’s a sobering factor. God is so critical about sin. You learn passages like Psalm 5:4. God hates sin. God gained’t dwell with sin. He doesn’t benefit from it. He doesn’t prefer it in any respect. And there are additionally ‑‑ now we have to acknowledge this brazenly, too. There are numerous individuals in scripture, and numerous, to me, which have died due to their sin, that God led to their demise due to their sin.
You understand, on the channel, I’m doing numerous apologetic work, and that’s one thing that comes up so much from atheists that I discuss to. They go, “What about all these those that God killed as a result of they had been unhealthy?” And it’s so fascinating when you concentrate on that. They declare that God is that this ethical monster due to his wrath, however the reason being typically due to their ‑‑ the rationale why they suppose that’s as a result of they’ve this restricted and subjective human morality, and God has to line up with their morality. The infinite thoughts of God has to align with atheist YouTube commenters’ morality. And I’ve seen, due to that, many Christians attempt to downplay the severity of God ‑‑ Romans 11:22, “the goodness and severity of God.” I’ve seen them attempt to downplay the severity of God to make him extra palatable to individuals, and I’ve seen that, and I believe, no, don’t do this. God’s judgment and his wrath, they’re essential parts of understanding why he does what he does. You possibly can’t downplay that and go, effectively ‑‑ and other people attempt to do the Previous Testomony/New Testomony factor, and let’s perceive this proper.
The God of heaven and Earth hates sin and he’ll punish sin, and whenever you downplay that a part of God, you’re not directly, if circuitously, main individuals to be extra snug with sin. I ought to have ‑‑ and I aspire to have this in my very own life ‑‑ the identical discomfort that Jesus had in direction of sin, and I do know I’m not there, however I need to be increasingly uncomfortable with sin. And so what I inform individuals ‑‑ once I downplay God’s wrath and his judgment, I’m doing one thing that’s the reverse of the center of God and the way he feels about sin. So the whole lot I see God do must be seen with the partial thought that ‑‑ a minimum of partially, if not majorly, that he’s appearing out of his hatred for sin. In actual fact, you possibly can in all probability very simply make the case you’ll be able to join that to the whole lot that he does; it’s out of his hatred for sin. The place individuals begin to get this flawed is the best way they ‑‑ I suppose one of the simplest ways to say it’s, what does hatred for sin seem like? Quite a lot of the time we form of apply that in a method. However does that form of make sense, what I’m saying right here?
WES: Yeah, yeah, completely, it does. And what’s so fascinating, to form of return to the concept of the skeptic or the atheist who’s offended at God for being offended, or offended at God for his wrath and searching on the God of the Bible and saying, “Nicely, that God can’t probably exist, or if he does, he’s an ethical monster” ‑‑ what’s so fascinating is that the identical skeptics will appear to ask ‑‑ when there’s a faculty capturing or when there’s some horrible factor that occurs, they’ll ask, “Nicely, the place was God? Why doesn’t God do one thing concerning the evil on the planet?” And that’s so fascinating, that when God does one thing concerning the evil on the planet and punishes evil individuals, we are saying, “Oh, effectively, that’s a imply God and that’s flawed and he shouldn’t be like that,” after which when God doesn’t do one thing concerning the evil on the planet and he permits evil to go, a minimum of from our viewpoint, unchecked, then we are saying, “Nicely, that’s an apathetic God and that’s horrible and I can’t imagine God can be that approach.”
And what’s fascinating is that scripture offers with this. It offers with all of this, the place generally the psalmist, particularly, can be saying, “God, the place are you? Why don’t you present up? Why don’t you take care of this? Why do you permit evil individuals to proceed doing what they do?” And the excellent news is that God will take care of the entire evil on the planet. I take into consideration the issues that Jesus informed his disciples to do, like flip the opposite cheek and go the additional mile and love your enemies, pray for individuals who persecute you. The one approach we are able to do this and stay out the directions of Jesus is that if we actually imagine that sometime God will take care of the entire evil on the planet, that God will punish the evildoer, that he’ll punish the depraved. In any other case, we must always simply go take vengeance for ourselves. We should always simply go and punish the entire depraved individuals in the event that they’re simply gonna get away with it. However as a result of we imagine that God does take sin severely and that he’ll set the whole lot proper, then we are able to flip the opposite cheek. We will pray for our enemies. We will love our enemies if we actually, really imagine that God actually takes sin severely and that he’s much more offended about it than we’re.
MARCO: Yeah. To attach this to what we had been saying earlier, the popularity of my inadequacy is definitely probably the most liberating issues in my life, and it’s precipitated me to have such an ideal belief in God who is aware of what he’s doing. And once I understand that God is aware of what he’s doing and I settle for my inadequacy, life, in a sure sense, turns into really easy as a result of all I’ve acquired to do is belief God. And, clearly, that takes me to tough locations, and there’s one thing to be stated about that, however all I’ve to do is belief God, so that may result in motion in sure areas or simply holding again, peace‑be‑nonetheless form of issues, trusting him once I take into consideration perhaps my non‑Christian household and the way all that works ‑‑ all I’ve to do is belief that my God, Isaiah 55:8‑9, that he is aware of what’s greatest. His methods aren’t simply totally different than mine; they’re greater. His ideas and his methods are greater than my ideas and my methods. So it’s such a liberating factor to take a look at God because the one whose understanding is infinite, in Psalm 147. I can belief him, and that ‑‑ truly, realizing that I’m so insufficient and all I’ve acquired to do is belief God, that’s such a liberating factor, however I can see why that’s exhausting for individuals to do who aren’t considering in non secular however in carnal phrases, as a result of it’s exhausting to let go of your individual sense of morality when you’re not likely offered on God, if that is sensible.
WES: Yeah, yeah, for certain. And that’s what it’s to be a Christian or to be a part of the household of God, is to, as you stated, belief him, and that’s exhausting. And I believe it’s good for us to acknowledge when that’s exhausting or when it looks as if God is being harsh or when it looks as if God is being apathetic, and scripture provides us permission to say, “Hey, God, that is how I’m feeling. I’m feeling like that is actually harsh. And why can’t I do that factor that I need to do or why did this factor occur or why aren’t you doing something and why don’t you repair these issues on the planet?” And over and time and again, the scriptures educate us to attend for the Lord, watch for the Lord, watch for the Lord. And now we have to be satisfied ‑‑ and I believe that’s why the cross must be on the middle of our theology. The cross teaches us that God, one, takes sin severely, for certain. However quantity two, that God is nice and that he’s gracious and merciful and he loves us. And if we’re satisfied of the goodness of God, we’re satisfied that he actually will set the whole lot proper, then we are able to watch for the Lord and we will be affected person and we are able to belief him, even when it doesn’t occur in our lifetime, that God will do the entire issues he’s promised to do.
MARCO: Yeah, the assertion “God is critical about sin,” it typically will get translated into, “God can’t wait to punish you,” and that’s not the precise translation. That’s not who God is. And it’s an overreaction to that mindset that causes individuals to downplay the judgment and the wrath of God, in my expertise, as a result of they’ve this concept that God is critical about sin; which means he can’t wait to punish you. And that’s not ‑‑ the higher Biblical place and strategy, in my thoughts, is God is so critical about sin that he despatched his personal Son to save lots of you from it, and after having been saved, he continues to help you in your day by day life regardless of your imperfections. So simply belief him, realizing that you’re insufficient. He doesn’t need to punish you ‑‑ 2 Peter 3:9, he’s not keen that any ought to perish however that each one ought to come to repentance. That’s what God needs. And so God being critical about sin doesn’t straight translate to, he simply can’t wait to punish you. No. In actual fact, when you have a look at how he acted in his seriousness in direction of sin, you see one thing very, very totally different than such a restricted mindset like that.
WES: Yeah. Nicely, there’s a pair tales to form of go together with that theme that you simply’re bringing on the market, and even to return to the concept of God killing individuals in scripture, God placing individuals to demise. You understand, we’ve acquired Nadab and Abihu, we’ve acquired Uzzah. Nadab and Abihu had been these clergymen who provided unusual fireplace and God struck them useless. Uzzah was a part of transporting the Ark on a cart, and the oxen stumbled and the Ark started to fall and he reached out and touched the Ark of the Covenant and he was struck useless. And so now we have these tales, and for me, rising up, preachers, Bible class lecturers, we learn these tales so much and these tales, for some individuals, they might be some obscure story within the Previous Testomony they’ve by no means even heard of earlier than. They don’t know who Nadab and Abihu are. They don’t know who Uzzah was, and they also’re simply obscure tales, however for me, the place I grew up and the way I grew up, for lots of the church buildings I used to be in, these tales acquired emphasised so much in order that they turned form of central for my theology and I did take into consideration God’s wrath that approach, that I assumed, effectively, God is simply ready for me to unintentionally attain out and contact the Ark. He’s ready for me to unintentionally provide some unusual fireplace and God goes to punish me. He’s ready for me to step out of line. He’s like a police officer that’s set a velocity entice and he’s simply ready for me to go over the velocity restrict even one mile an hour in order that he can punish me.
So do you suppose that these tales ‑‑ clearly, they’re tales of issues that God did, however do you suppose they get emphasised within the flawed methods or emphasised to the exclusion of different tales or they turn into too central in our theology? How do you suppose we must always take into consideration tales like that?
MARCO: Yeah, when you take loads of these tales ‑‑ I discussed the God can’t wait to punish you, the overreaction to that that causes individuals to downplay his wrath. There’s one other facet to that, the place there are those that see individuals downplaying God’s wrath, and so then they go to an excessive they usually go, “We have to harp on Leviticus 10 continually. We have to harp on the story of Uzzah continually.” And, truthfully, I discovered myself in that camp for some time, the place I assumed, as a result of there’s so many individuals downplaying his wrath, I want to simply hammer this continually. And, once more, it led to ‑‑ it contributed to an already restricted mindset on God as a result of that’s not who God is, to simply scale back him to Leviticus 10, to cut back him to the story of Uzzah.
I used to be serious about it in phrases like this. You understand, I’ve two daughters. Dad and mom ‑‑ and though my daughters are each younger, they’re each child toddlers, dad and mom should self-discipline their children ultimately, no matter that approach is. And I keep in mind this thought, as a child, in direction of my dad and mom: All you need to do is punish me. All you need to do is punish me. And, sometimes, that assertion would come from a scarcity of perspective, however it additionally would come from this hyperfixation on myself once I didn’t get what I needed. And so I’d simply straw‑man virtually who my dad and mom had been and say, “All they need to do is punish me.” And I was so jealous of youngsters in class, rising up, whose dad and mom didn’t punish them ever, whose dad and mom had no guidelines, they acquired to do no matter they needed, no limitations. I assumed, these are the great dad and mom. I imply, come on. If solely my dad and mom would discuss to these dad and mom as soon as, they’d know these are the great dad and mom. And now I understand these weren’t the great dad and mom, and I’m not jealous of the youngsters who had these varieties of fogeys.
And whenever you join this again to God, you achieve a approach higher perspective on this approach. When you had been to line up all of the situations of God’s severity within the Previous Testomony up in opposition to all of the situations of him dealing out extraordinary quantities of goodness and mercy, it could blow you away as a result of God has truly given us a perspective of easy methods to perceive who he’s and what he does all all through scripture. In Exodus 20, the giving of the Ten Commandments, there’s that well-known line the place he says, “I’m a jealous God visiting the iniquities,” however he additionally says, “however displaying mercy to hundreds, to those that love me and preserve my commandments.” So the God who simply stated, “I’m a God of wrath, I punish, and I’ll punish for a very long time,” he additionally says, “however I present mercy to hundreds, to those that love me and preserve my commandments.”
So if I can discover, Biblically, only one individual within the Bible who was clearly flawed however God confirmed them mercy, I can show to you that you could be so flawed and nonetheless be one who loves God and retains his commandments in his eyes, and that offers you unbelievable perspective. And that phrase in Exodus 20, it’s in Exodus 34, it’s all all through the Previous Testomony, it’s somewhere else, as effectively ‑‑ it’s a extremely repeated passage in scripture, and it makes it clear to you that the overwhelming majority of the situations of God’s wrath and severity, they’re additionally proof of his mercy, as a result of in so many conditions, the consequence may have and will have been approach worse than what they acquired. And so loads of instances individuals simply boil it all the way down to what the punishment was, they usually go, “Look how extreme God is,” however let’s keep in mind, let’s not get it mistaken right here, God may have and was keen, at one level, to complete Israel and simply begin once more with Moses. And the truth that you’ll be able to learn that after which go one chapter later and Israel nonetheless exists? That’s God’s mercy on each single a part of the web page. And so, loads of the time, we form of construct this straw man or we’re approach too reductionist about these acts of wrath. They’re truly unbelievable examples of mercy on the a part of God and goodness on the a part of God.
WES: Yeah. Yeah, I’m so glad that you simply introduced up Exodus 34. I’m going to learn this ‑‑ I’m going to learn that entire passage, verses 6 and seven. It says, “The Lord handed earlier than him and proclaimed, ‘The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, sluggish to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, holding steadfast love for hundreds, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, however who will under no circumstances clear the responsible, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the youngsters and the youngsters’s kids, to the third and fourth technology.’”
It’s so fascinating, once we learn that passage, that each of these points, the judgment of God and the mercy of God ‑‑ each are clearly represented, however to say that they’re balanced would, I believe, be the flawed technique to put it as a result of they’re not likely balanced as in the event that they’re a one‑to‑one equation. Like God has wrath and judgment, and he additionally has mercy and style, and also you’ve acquired to have each. And it’s true, you do should have each, however not in equal measure, that he’s way more gracious and merciful than he’s punishing, that it’s a thousand to 3 or 4. He’s forgiving to hundreds and he’s wrathful, or he’s judging and punishing three or 4 generations, and it’s not a one‑to‑one equation.
And I believe you’re precisely proper. I’m so glad that you simply stated that, so typically, the form of emphasizing of Nadab and Abihu or the emphasizing of Uzzah and God’s wrath is an overreaction to the perceived liberalism or the perceived overemphasis of mercy and style. And I hear preachers say issues like that, “Nicely, that church over there, they simply speak about love on a regular basis,” or “They only speak about mercy on a regular basis.” And, yeah, that very effectively stands out as the case, and we definitely don’t need to de‑emphasize the horrible nature of sin. We don’t need to ignore sin and use grace as a license for sin. Completely, that may and does occur, however we’ve acquired to be so cautious that we’re not making an attempt to place the judgment of God as a one‑to‑one comparability of his mercy and his grace, that he’s way more ‑‑ I’m so glad that you simply put it that approach, that when you put the entire passages within the Previous Testomony of God being gracious and merciful, they’d far outweigh these instances the place he does have wrath and he does choose and he does punish, and people are each points that we have to speak about and emphasize, however not in the identical form of approach.
MARCO: Yeah. Really, I’ve a very good instance for the concept it’s not one‑to‑one. When you learn by means of Judges ‑‑ , I discussed if yow will discover one flawed one who God confirmed mercy to, then I can show that you could be flawed and nonetheless love God and be a keeper of his commandments in his eyes. In Judges, they’re on this vicious cycle of sin, penalties, crying out, God provides a choose, delivers them, time of peace, after which rinse and repeat, principally. And in Judges chapter 3, that entire cycle is going on, after which God provides deliverance in Othniel, after which he blesses them with relaxation for 40 years. After that point, they return into sin, after which they’re beneath Moabite oppression, beneath Eglon, after which they cry out for God’s assist. He sends Ehud. And after they expertise deliverance beneath Ehud, how lengthy do you suppose now God provides them deliverance for? Wouldn’t it be much less time? Does God say they want some probationary interval? “Show to me, give me a pair years of faithfulness, then I’ll do” ‑‑ God doubles the quantity of relaxation from 40 to 80 years. So why would God do this? Had been they simply so exceptionally good this time, so good at being delivered this time or one thing like that? No. God is simply that good and he needs to bless that a lot. Why double it? Perhaps God is simply so good that he’s keen to double his blessings that can assist you see the enjoyment of dwelling for him, and hopefully, that can preserve you from leaving him and experiencing sin, struggling, and wrath sooner or later. It’s nowhere close to one‑to‑one. God actually doubles his blessings on individuals who deserve approach, approach lower than any of that.
WES: Wow, that’s implausible. Let me ask you this as we’re closing. It’s so humorous that we’re having this dialog as a result of I used to be simply requested by any individual right here lately who stated if Jesus and God had been collectively from the start, which means God, the Father ‑‑ if Jesus and the Father had been collectively from the start, why is the God of the Previous Testomony so totally different from the God of the New Testomony? Clearly, that’s a query that folks have been wrestling with and considering by means of for a pair thousand years now. So how would you reply to that ‑‑ or how do you reply to that whenever you get questions like that, form of pitting the, quote‑unquote, “God of the Previous Testomony” in opposition to the, quote‑unquote, “God of the New Testomony”?
MARCO: Yeah, good cop/unhealthy cop, one thing like that. You understand, I’ve a solution for the query, however I additionally reject the premise of the query. It simply relies upon what they imply by this generally. Typically individuals are saying, “Why does God deal with issues in another way?” And I believe that’s a special query than “Why is God so totally different?” You understand, there’s one thing to be stated about God treating them in another way in software however not when it comes to his character. And God’s promise was to carry the Messiah by means of Abraham’s seed, and Jesus isn’t coming into the world by means of the seed of Abraham in the event that they get picked off within the wilderness by enemy nations, if they’ve giant quantities of individuals dying from consuming sure meals or animals which are extra harmful than others, in the event that they’re taking part in quick and unfastened with their sexual relationships, they’re intermingling with different nations, in the event that they’re getting one another fatally in poor health as a result of they’re touching rotting corpses after which their palms are soiled they usually deal with different conditions like that. However, additionally, if insurrection after insurrection, civil wars, primarily, in Israel are simply allowed to occur at any time when individuals really feel prefer it, Messiah isn’t coming by means of Abraham’s seed. They’re not going to final very lengthy. If the individuals are not going to be held accountable for the disrespect of God’s holiness, they’re not going to make it, both. To harken again to Nadab and Abihu, for instance, that’s what God says: “By those that come close to me, I should be considered holy. When you’re going to make it, you must regard me as holy. Earlier than all of the individuals, I should be glorified.” So God was definitely extra extreme bodily, you’ll be able to say, within the Previous Testomony, partially, for these causes. They wanted to be alive. You possibly can speak about that stuff.
However right here’s the place I reject the premise. Was God any roughly loving then? No. Was God roughly merciful again then? Was he roughly critical about sin? Was he extra critical or much less critical? Completely not. So generally we take one type of software and make the corresponding precept, like, unique to that form of software, that type of self-discipline, you possibly can say, when a precept will be utilized some ways or a attribute of God’s nature will be utilized some ways. So, with God, we have to take the entire of what he did to extra precisely perceive his nature and the underlying causes for the form of software ‑‑ or the form of therapy that he dealt out, since you’ve acquired to recollect, once more, God may have wiped them out, however he didn’t. So the applying ‑‑ you’ll be able to’t simply have a look at, , situations of wrath and say that’s much less love. No, no, no. All this stuff come collectively and also you’ve acquired to get to know God to grasp that half, his nature and the underlying causes for the applying of all of that. Does that form of make sense?
WES: Yeah, I believe that’s an ideal reply. I believe that’s a good way to place it, that God hasn’t modified, however that he’s coping with it in a brand new approach, however his character ‑‑ and that’s, I believe, the argument that the apostles made time and again, that the cross and what God has carried out is completely in line with the scriptures. And when the apostles discuss concerning the scriptures, they’re speaking concerning the Previous Testomony scriptures. They didn’t see any contradiction. They noticed, oh, in fact, that is precisely the form of factor that our God would do. In fact our God is gracious. In fact our God is merciful. And never solely does he need to rescue Israel, as a result of he’s been rescuing Israel for hundreds of years, however shock, shock, he additionally needs to rescue the Gentiles. He needs to rescue the world. And we see that as we glance by means of the, quote‑unquote, “Previous Testomony scriptures,” as effectively. We see, time and again, God’s concern is for all humanity and that the seed of Abraham was going to
bless the entire nations, not simply Israel. And, yeah, I so respect you serving to us to see the grace and the mercy of God in each the Previous and New Testaments.
MARCO: Yeah, I really like that you simply stated that, that the prophets and the apostles, they understood this about God. It’s us that attempt to stereotype God within the Previous Testomony and boil him all the way down to one thing that ‑‑ he’s far more than that. He’s far more than the situations of judgment and wrath, for instance. We have now such a very good God.
I take into consideration Psalm 23, and one of many largest the explanation why it’s such a beloved and well-known psalm is that lovely, like, end result in verse quantity 6, that “Certainly goodness and mercy shall observe me all the times of my life and I’ll dwell in the home of the Lord ceaselessly.” Folks love the sensation they get when they consider how good God is, and my Shepherd leads me in goodness and mercy. So now we have to ‑‑ as such an important a part of God’s nature, now we have to take a look at the whole lot that he does by means of that lens. That’s who he’s. God is love, and we’ve acquired to take a look at him in that approach, the goodness and the mercy that I get. As somebody that ‑‑ I establish with Israel a lot, and God blesses me and he exhibits his goodness to me like he did to them, and what a very good God. What a very good God.
WES: Yeah. Amen. I believe that’s an ideal place to cease. Marco, thanks for this dialog, however extra importantly, thanks for the work you’re doing within the kingdom, Brother.
MARCO: Likewise, man, I respect you very a lot.
The publish The God of the Previous Testomony with Marco Arroyo appeared first on Radically Christian.
