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This episode of the Radically Christian Bible Research Podcast tackles some essential questions on discipleship and following Jesus in right now’s world. What does it actually imply to be a disciple of Christ? How will we reconcile Jesus’ radical teachings, like loving our enemies and never storing up treasures on earth, with the realities of recent life? The dialog explores the stress between obedience to Jesus’ instructions and the challenges of residing them out in a world that always appears at odds with Christian values.
The dialogue facilities on Matthew’s gospel, analyzing the way it presents Jesus because the success of Outdated Testomony prophecies and the final word authority. The podcast explores key ideas from the Sermon on the Mount, unpacking what it means to be salt and light-weight on the planet with out attempting to alter it via drive. It addresses the character of Christian obedience, the function of forgiveness, and the hope of resurrection that makes discipleship worthwhile regardless of its prices.
The visitor for this episode is Travis Bookout, the preaching minister for the Maryville Church of Christ. Travis has written books on the gospels of John, Mark, and Matthew, and is at present engaged on his Doctorate of Instructional Ministry from Southern Seminary. Travis brings each scholarly perception and sensible expertise to the dialog about discipleship and residing out the teachings of Jesus in right now’s world.
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Transcript (Credit score: Beth Tabor)
Welcome to the Radically Christian Bible Research Podcast. I’m your host, Wes McAdams. Right here we’ve got one aim: Be taught to like like Jesus. As lots of you already know, we’re in the midst of a sequence on discipleship, and the gospel of Matthew has loads to show us about being disciples of Jesus. My visitor right now simply completed a e-book on the gospel of Matthew, and it’s wonderful. He has a lot knowledge to share with us. My visitor is Travis Bookout. Travis is the preaching minister for the Maryville Church of Christ. He’s written books on the gospel of John, Mark, and now Matthew, and is at present engaged on his Physician of Instructional Ministry from Southern Seminary. He has been married to his spouse, Lauren, for 16 years, they usually have two sons, Oliver and Levi.
Earlier than we get to that Bible examine, I wish to learn from Matthew chapter 28, beginning in verse 18, which says, “Jesus got here and stated to them, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go due to this fact and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them within the identify of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, educating them to watch all that I’ve commanded you. And behold, I’m with you all the time, to the tip of the age.’”
I hope that right now’s dialogue and dialog and Bible examine is encouraging to you. I hope that it offers you a greater appreciation of the gospel account of Matthew, and, as all the time, I hope that this dialog helps all of us be taught to like like Jesus.
WES: Travis Bookout, welcome to the podcast, Brother.
TRAVIS: Hey, thanks a lot. Glad to be right here.
WES: It’s incredible to get to go to with you, and I’m enthusiastic about this dialog. I’m enthusiastic about telling folks about your new e-book on Matthew, God With Us. It was incredible. I actually loved studying that, and I can’t look forward to different folks to learn it, as effectively. However right now we’re particularly going to speak about discipleship, and I’m asking the entire company which might be a part of this sequence on discipleship what their take or their definition of discipleship is. So how would you outline what it means to be a disciple?
TRAVIS: That’s an awesome query, and it’s one which, you know, I don’t know that I’ve a brilliant distinctive or inventive reply. What I wrote down was being a devoted learner who shares and embodies the beliefs, actions, and mission of the trainer, and I believe that’s principally ‑‑ it’s a change into the picture of the trainer via listening and thru following and imitation, and I believe that’s in the end what Jesus calls us to be, and, you already know, Matthew has some useful methods of taking that from only a definition to one thing you truly embody and do.
WES: Yeah. And I really like quite a lot of these phrases that you simply used, transformation into his picture and embodiment, and Matthew does give us a reasonably distinctive tackle discipleship. So I’d love to listen to your ideas, usually, concerning the gospel of Matthew even earlier than we speak concerning the specifics of how that pertains to discipleship. However what did you discover as you might have been learning? I’m positive you’ve been pouring into and permitting this e-book to pour into you fairly a bit right here not too long ago, so what’s your tackle the gospel of Matthew?
TRAVIS: Good e-book. I prefer it. Matthew’s incredible, and it’s ‑‑ you already know, every of the gospels ‑‑ you already know, particularly you might have just like the three synoptic gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, they usually have quite a lot of similarities, and one of many issues that I attempted to deal with within the e-book that I wrote are a few of the ‑‑ what makes them distinctive from each other, and Matthew has a few issues that appear to be ‑‑ not that they’re absent within the different ones, however they’re a particular level of emphasis within the gospel of Matthew.
A kind of key concepts is that Jesus is the success of so many scriptures from the Outdated Testomony, or from the Hebrew scriptures, and the way these come to a deeper and fuller which means once you look to Jesus. And what that which means typically represents, I believe, is that Jesus needs to be seen compared to quite a lot of key figures and key concepts from the Outdated Testomony.
So one factor that may typically be problematic for readers is you learn via Matthew, and he’ll say “This occurred to meet what the prophet stated,” and he’ll quote, like, Hosea 11:1, and also you go and also you learn Hosea 11:1, and it says, “When Israel was a youth, I beloved him, and out of Egypt I known as my son.” And also you learn that and also you assume, effectively, okay, that’s about Israel popping out of Egypt, like that’s the Exodus story. And then you definitely hold studying Hosea and also you come to seek out out that the son is a disobedient son who retains going after idols and all of this stuff. And also you assume, how on the planet does Jesus fulfill a passage that’s about Israel being disobedient?
And I believe the way in which you try this ‑‑ and that is simply sort of an instance of the kind of factor that Matthew usually does when he makes use of the phrase “success,” is Jesus needs to be seen because the devoted Israel who comes to meet and full what was missing within the Israel that God had known as. So Israel was known as with a mission and, repeatedly, they don’t fulfill their mission or they fall in need of their mission, and so Jesus, as an Israelite, comes and takes on the id of Israel and he fulfills what was missing. So Jesus does go to Egypt and he has his personal Egypt story, his personal Exodus story the place he comes out of Egypt. Jesus does go to the wilderness, however the place Israel failed and a technology died, Jesus is tempted however is overwhelmingly profitable. Jesus is ready to go up on the mountain like Moses did and get to the center of what the legislation was all the time supposed to provide within the Israelites, and he’s attempting to provide that in his disciples, in order that, as Israel known as to be a lightweight to the nations, the disciples could be the sunshine of the world. And simply during you see that Jesus is taking over these completely different roles. He takes on a job like Moses. He takes on a job like Israel. He takes on a job like David or the son of David. After which, in each one in all them, you see that Jesus shouldn’t be solely taking over that function, however he’s doing it in better and in superior methods than may have been seen or acknowledged beforehand. In order that’s one of many distinctive ways in which Matthew tells the Jesus story.
Alongside the way in which, he does a number of different issues. He presents Jesus as this authoritative trainer. There are like 5 main speeches within the gospel of Matthew. Should you take these speeches out and you are taking out the beginning narrative and, relying on the manuscripts, the resurrection narratives, Matthew is a complete lot like Mark. It follows quite a lot of the identical construction, quite a lot of the identical chronology, and even the identical wording. However Matthew has a beginning narrative and a better resurrection narrative, after which it has these 5 speeches interspersed. And I believe these 5 speeches ‑‑ they offer us deeper perception into what the dominion is all about, the dominion message, in order that’s a key concept, is the thought of the dominion of heaven, and it reveals how you can dwell in that kingdom, how you can faithfully endure for that kingdom. It solutions a few of the mysteries of that kingdom. It reveals you the mindset of humility that’s important to the dominion, and the hope within the coming of the dominion.
And so you may have a look at these 5 speeches, and afterwards you come to appreciate that Jesus is talking not solely with the authority that comes from some nice rabbi or some nice individual, however he’s talking with the very authority of God. So he’s launched within the e-book as “God with us,” and by the tip of it he has all authority in heaven and on earth. Like there’s no one that can have all authority in heaven and on earth. The one who has all authority in heaven is God, and we would see counterfeit authorities on earth, however Jesus is the one who truly is the supreme authority general.
And so Matthew ends ‑‑ I really like the Nice Fee. I believe it sums up a lot, and it’ll lead into our dialogue of discipleship. It ends with Jesus on a mountain. Like Moses went on a mountain, Jesus has been on a mountain usually all through the gospel of Matthew. The mountain is a crucial setting. You realize, in Matthew 4, he’s on a mountain with Devil, and he’s supplied all of the kingdoms of the earth, and he rejects them. After which Matthew 5, he goes up on a mountain once more to speak about his kingdom, the dominion that he’s truly representing and he does truly carry, and it’s the Sermon on the Mount. However then you definitely hold studying. He tells his disciples to be the sunshine on ‑‑ or the town that’s on the mountain, you already know, the town on a hill, but it surely’s the identical Greek phrase as mountain. He goes again up on the mountain once more within the transfiguration, the place he’s actually in comparison with Moses and Elijah and is proven to be superior to them. The Mount of Olives is the place he goes earlier than he’s arrested.
After which the ultimate verses of Matthew, he’s again up on a mountain and he’s worshiped whereas he’s on that mountain. The disciples collect and worship with him, which, you already know, if you happen to’re evaluating him to Moses, Moses went up on a mountain, however Moses wasn’t worshiped there; God is the one worshiped on the mountain. So Jesus is on the mountain, he’s being worshiped, after which he says, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me,” which is one thing that may solely be true of God, and it’s with the supreme authority of the divine being himself that Jesus gives the fee to exit and to make disciples.
So I believe all of that’s sort of Matthew’s manner of demonstrating that the entire story of Israel has been resulting in Jesus and is fulfilled in Jesus. And he comes not solely as an awesome Moses or an awesome son of David or Israel, however because the embodiment of God himself, with all authority to trigger us to exit and to remodel the lives of individuals into changing into followers and disciples of his.
WES: Yeah, yeah. Amen. Properly, it’s such a beautiful manner that you simply’ve laid every part out, and I simply really feel like learning the gospel accounts is so vital for Christians. I chuckle as a result of that needs to be apparent, I believe. However I believe again to rising up and, you already know, what I heard in church, or simply the impression that I received ‑‑ I don’t know that anybody ever stated something like this, however I simply assume I received the impression that what actually mattered was the loss of life of Jesus, and we spent, it looks as if, little or no time speaking about who’s Jesus, his life, the way in which that he lived his life throughout these 33 years, the issues that he truly taught us to do.
I believe what appears to get emphasised ‑‑ that is what Scot McKnight calls “the gospel of sin administration.” That will not be unique to him, however that concept that each one that actually issues is that Jesus was good, Jesus died on the cross to avoid wasting us, and now it’s best to learn the epistles and do these issues there and never do the unhealthy issues. And going again to who’s Jesus and what did he educate us to do, how did he educate us to dwell is so elementary. If we’re going to be, as you stated, remodeled into the picture of our trainer, into the picture of our rabbi, we’ve got to know what he did, how he lived his life, and the issues that he has taught us to do.
So let’s speak about that concept of discipleship, and particularly to the gospel of Matthew, how does Matthew give us a novel perspective on what it means and appears prefer to be a disciple?
TRAVIS: Properly, one of many causes that I needed us to get to that mountaintop scene on the finish of the gospel of Matthew with the Nice Fee is as a result of Jesus may be very specific there about what discipleship is. He says, “Make disciples of all of the nations.” So if Jesus has all authority, then meaning though there’s different kings and governors and issues like that all through the world, there’s every kind of countries ‑‑ ever because the promise given to Abraham, there was this imaginative and prescient of the nations uniting along with Israel underneath the one true king, and Jesus is now that king, the one with all authority. That’s the way in which a king speaks. So he says, “Go into all of the nations and make disciples,” after which he follows that with two important components of creating disciples, one in all which is baptizing them within the identify of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, which, once more, if you happen to’re clues to the divine id of Jesus, he’s on a mountain, he’s being worshiped, he has all authority in heaven and earth, and he’s named with the Father and the Holy Spirit within the baptismal formulation.
So anyway, you might have this description of baptizing within the identify of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, however then he says, “educating them to watch all that I’ve commanded you, and I’ll be with you all the time, even to the tip of the age.” I believe that closing phrase, “I’ll be with you all the time,” is admittedly vital for discipleship, additionally, to know that we’re not doing this alone, that we’re not on our personal. It connects again to the primary fulfilled passage in Matthew. It’s from Isaiah 7:14, the place he’s given the identify Emmanuel, which implies “God with us.” And I believe, from the start, we’re informed Jesus is God with us. On the finish, we get this image of him divine, on a mountain, saying, “and I shall be with you all the time,” and there are a few clues in Matthew as to how he’s with us.
For instance, in Matthew 18, you might have Jesus saying, “The place two or three are gathered in my identify, I’m there in your midst.” Like, he’s with us locally of believers. You see that once more in Matthew 25, the place he separates the sheep and the goats, and he says, “Once I was bare, you clothed me. Once I was hungry, you fed me. Once I was in jail, you visited me.” They usually’re like, “When did we do that?” And he says, “As a lot as you probably did it to the least of those, my brothers, you’ve carried out it to me.” And so how is Jesus with us? Properly, in a technique, he’s with us via the neighborhood and he’s part of the neighborhood with us.
However all of that’s to say discipleship is one thing that we have to bear in mind is finished with the neighborhood and is finished with Jesus. Very tough to do on our personal, and we’re not known as to do it on our personal. We’re known as to be a metropolis on a hill, not a person standing up on a pleasant hill. However he does point out that it’s baptism after which educating to watch all that Jesus says, and so disciples are baptized individuals who adopted the teachings of Jesus and practiced them.
So once you conclude with these phrases, what the reader is inspired to do is to assume, okay, so what did Jesus command? And so that you return to the start of Matthew and also you learn it once more, this time being attentive to what kinds of issues did Jesus say. And if I’m supposed to watch all that Jesus has stated, effectively, it’s gonna make the Sermon on the Mount a extremely vital a part of discipleship. It’s gonna make Matthew 10, the second main speech, a extremely vital a part of discipleship, Matthew 13, Matthew 18 about forgiveness and about little ones versus nice ones within the kingdom. Like, humility goes to develop into a vital a part of discipleship.
And I believe it’s vital that Jesus was not just a few armchair theologian who sat there and spoke the phrases of the Sermon on the Mountain and stated go do it. If a disciple is somebody who learns but in addition imitates, it’s vital to know that Jesus not solely taught, but in addition did. And so when Jesus says issues like, “You’ve heard that it was stated a watch for a watch and a tooth for a tooth, however I say to you, if somebody slaps you on the cheek, flip the opposite to him additionally. If somebody sues you on your cloak, give him your tunic, additionally. If somebody forces you to go one mile, go along with him two” ‑‑ you retain studying Matthew, and each a kind of issues Jesus says, he additionally does. He’s actually slapped on the face. He’s actually taken to courtroom unjustly. His garments are actually taken from him by his enemies. He’s actually pressured to march by Roman armies. It’s like Jesus ‑‑ I believe that’s intentional, that the issues Jesus teaches are additionally the issues he does.
So if we’re gonna be disciples, we gotta return via and see what he teaches and have a look at his life and see what he does, and his life leads him to the cross, and it’s no accident that he tells us, if we’re going to comply with him, we’ve got to hold our cross. Numerous occasions following Jesus results in uncomfortable locations. It results in loss of life. And, I imply, I’m reminded of Bonhoeffer’s phrases in The Value of Discipleship, “When Christ calls a person, he bids him come and die,” and people are highly effective phrases, however, actually, that’s the decision of discipleship, to fully lose your self in following Jesus wherever that takes you.
WES: Yeah. Properly, there’s a lot in Matthew, as you’ve identified, about his authority, about obedience, about doing what he tells us to do as a king ‑‑ as you’d count on a king to do, could be to inform us what to do and how you can dwell our lives. So I believe that that brings up an fascinating query, too, is nearly obedience. Actually, you stated it very well in your e-book. You stated, “Obedience is crucial, however not central. Jesus’ obedience is central.” So what did you imply by that? What does that imply, and why is it vital to sort of hold in our minds that we’ve got to be obedient to the teachings of Jesus, but it surely isn’t our obedience, our obedience to do all of this stuff and don’t do all of this stuff, that really saves us.
TRAVIS: Yeah. So, actually, that’s powerful typically. Once you’re studying the gospel of Matthew otherwise you’re studying the e-book of Romans, like even the way in which they use the phrase righteousness, it’s not fairly the identical. You realize, in Matthew, righteousness is one thing, like, you do, you already know? Fasting and praying and giving in Matthew 6 are all known as methods of practising righteousness, and we’re informed that our righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees. And so it positive feels like, man, if I’m going to be a righteous individual, I’ve to do all of these items.
However then you definitely learn Romans, and righteousness is like ‑‑ “There’s none that’s righteous, no not one,” and righteousness is a present from God to those that place their religion or allegiance ‑‑ I’ll in all probability borrow the phrase allegiance a pair occasions in my reply from Matthew Bates. He has some wonderful books on understanding religion within the New Testomony. However once you give your religion to Christ, righteousness is a present from God that you would be able to’t attain by yourself. So what will we do with that? And I believe one route folks have taken it’s to devalue the importance of obedience, and I don’t assume that’s the correct path.
Once you learn Matthew, like on the finish of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus has this comparability between the clever man and the silly man, these two builders. And who’s the clever one? He truly hears and does what Jesus says. So the Sermon on the Mount isn’t just for us to memorize or to be taught or to see important truths that might be nice if somebody did them someday. It’s not only a image of what heaven’s going to be like. You realize, some have urged the Sermon on the Mount is that this glorified demonstration of what God truly expects, and what you’re speculated to do is learn it, acknowledge how brief you fall, after which thank God for his grace, you already know? And I believe that’s gonna occur, positive, however that’s not the aim of it. The aim of it’s so that you can truly do it. You realize, that’s how Jesus ends it. And so our obedience is completely crucial. It’s important to obey Jesus if he’s truly your king, and I believe that placing your religion in Jesus is greater than only a psychological assent to a few details about him. It’s truly pledging your allegiance and constancy and faithfulness to him all through life, and that can embody your coronary heart and your thoughts and your physique. And that’s a lot of what Jesus is attempting to do, is he’s attempting to unite these issues in order that not solely do you not commit adultery along with your physique, you don’t lust in your coronary heart. Jesus desires all of it in obedience to him, and so obedience is completely crucial.
Nonetheless, the fact is I’ve not totally obeyed the Sermon on the Mount, and that’s going to be a continuing wrestle. That’s going to be a continuing ‑‑ I’ll be grappling with that my whole life. And so what’s my hope of salvation? Jesus, I don’t assume, teaches the Sermon on the Mount and says, “And any mistake alongside the way in which will low cost you from my kingdom.” Actually, proper in the midst of the Sermon on the Mount, he gives this prayer the place it describes, I believe, a few of the most vital kingdom values, and on this prayer, he says, “Our Father, who artwork in heaven, hallowed be your identify. Your kingdom come, your shall be carried out on earth as it’s in heaven. Give us at the present time our each day bread, and forgive us of our trespasses as we forgive those that trespass in opposition to us. Lead us not into temptation, however ship us from evil.”
However that phrase proper there about forgiveness, I believe, is admittedly vital as a result of it’s not the truth that I’m good at following the Sermon on the Mount; it’s the truth that I’m forgiven once I fail to comply with the Sermon on the Mount. And the place does that forgiveness come from? Properly, it comes from the truth that Jesus was good in following the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus truly did the issues that he stated and he did them completely in order that Jesus, in loving his enemies, didn’t kill them or destroy them. He went to the cross for them. He tells us to like our enemies, however that’s not one thing he himself wouldn’t do. He not solely loves his enemies, he went to the cross to die for the salvation of his enemies in order that even me and also you and all of us who fail to dwell as much as his name can have hope in a God who loves even his enemies. He loves us and he saves us, and that’s why our obedience to Jesus as Lord is crucial. If we’re going to say that he’s king, if we’re going to say that he’s Lord, we’ve got to do what he says. However you’ll fail, and it’s the truth that he additionally loves his enemies, the truth that he additionally suffers for the nice of others, the truth that he gave his life for us signifies that we will have hope and assurance of our standing earlier than God even despite our failures.
WES: Yeah, yeah. I believe that that phrase ‑‑ and I additionally actually take pleasure in Matthew Bates’ work on that concept of allegiance and the way that’s tied to the pistis within the New Testomony, or religion. And, in reality, I’m preaching ‑‑ this complete yr right here at McDermott Highway my theme is loving loyalty. I believe phrases like loyalty and allegiance and faithfulness are so vital. Actually, I began the yr by introducing this concept, and I talked about how, as a husband, I’m not an ideal husband. I stated you may ask my spouse and he or she’ll inform you that I’m not an ideal husband, however I’m a devoted husband, and I’ve been devoted because the day we received married, however I’ve not been good.
And I believe we perceive that with regards to marriage, that even if you happen to have a look at our marriage vows ‑‑ I imply, I used 1 Corinthians 13, I believe, in all probability in my marriage vows, however, you already know, I made all of those guarantees to my spouse about how I used to be going to like her and I used to be gonna do all of this stuff. Have I saved all of these guarantees to a T? Have I dotted each I and crossed each T? Have I been good in my obedience to these marriage vows? Properly, in all probability not if you happen to’re measuring it that manner, however I’ve been devoted. I’ve been a devoted husband. Actually, my youngest son was slightly appalled that I might declare to be devoted, and I stated, no, no, no, we should always have the ability to say that, to say, I’ve been devoted to my guarantees, I’ve been devoted to my partner, my spouse.
And I believe the identical ought to have the ability to be stated about God, that we’ve got been devoted to God. We’ve been ‑‑ I believe there have been so many Israelites who may have stated that, who had been devoted to Yahweh. None of them had been good besides Jesus, however they had been devoted to Yahweh. The overwhelming majority, after all, had been
not simply not good, they had been additionally not devoted, and Jesus calls us to faithfulness, to loyalty, to allegiance. And does that embody obedience? Completely it does. However he understands that we’re not good. He’s merciful. He’s gracious. He’s gradual to anger and abounding in steadfast love. That is the way in which God has all the time been.
However I believe that we ‑‑ as you stated, we go up to now ‑‑ I used to hearken to quite a lot of reformed, Calvinist sort of educating that actually educate concerning the Sermon on the Mount, that that needs to be your response, is learn it and say, oh, what a sinner I’m, after which simply be grateful that Jesus has saved you with none implication. No, no, no. Now it’s time to go to work and be obedient to the teachings of Jesus. And that is truly ‑‑ if we’re going to take Jesus significantly, we’ve got to not solely take him significantly when he gives to die for us and to cleanse us of our sins, however we additionally need to take him significantly when he says construct your life on my teachings, go and obey every part I’ve taught you to do and educate others to do the identical factor. So it’s each. It’s sure, we’re forgiven as a result of we’re imperfect, however we’re additionally known as to a lifetime of devoted obedience in Christ.
TRAVIS: Yeah, I believe that’s completely proper. And yeah, it’s such as you get to the tip of the Sermon on the Mount and it’s a name to go and do it. You get to the tip of the gospel of Matthew as a complete, defining what discipleship is, it’s a name to watch all of the issues that he has commanded. So like doing is crucial, however then, as you learn via it, you get to Matthew 18, the place you might have this man who owes this debt, can by no means in one million years repay, and the king forgives him of it. I imply, so forgiveness is completely part of the system as a result of that’s who God is and it’s why we should always forgive different folks, as a result of we’re speculated to be demonstrating to the world round us who God is. That’s why you obey. I imply, you don’t obey as a result of God is in want and he can’t make issues work on this world with out us. God can do what God desires to do, however our fee is to point out individuals who God is, and forgiveness is a vital a part of that. So that ought to inspire us to be forgiving folks, but in addition it must thrill us and fill us with pleasure that we serve a forgiving God.
And so, yeah, you’re not gonna completely embody the Sermon on the Mount. You received’t be the right husband. You received’t be the right citizen. You received’t be the right follower of Jesus, however you could be forgiven. And such as you stated ‑‑ and I believe that’s an awesome distinction, you could be devoted. He can know that your allegiance is with him even along with your failures. It’s the development of your life, you already know? The dedication you’ve made within the development of your life into discipleship and into following him, I believe, is what defines our allegiance and our faithfulness.
WES: Yeah, yeah, completely. Let’s sort of change gears slightly bit, however nonetheless on the subject of the Nice Fee, there’s this fee that Jesus offers his followers on the finish of this gospel account to enter all of the world, to make disciples, however on the identical time, you make the purpose in your e-book that following Jesus, particularly following his teachings within the Sermon on the Mount, shouldn’t be about altering the world for Jesus. I believe typically we’ve gotten it into our head that our job because the church or our job as Christians is to go and make the world a greater place, that we’re speculated to drive our neighbors to comply with Jesus, to implement methods or to implement insurance policies that replicate God’s will and to make the world extra obedient to God as a result of we’re Christians. So what’s the excellence there? How will we distinguish between being salt and light-weight and making disciples, however on the identical time recognizing that our job is to not take the world over and make it higher for Jesus? That’s not what the Sermon on the Mount’s about.
TRAVIS: Yeah. So I believe that’s a extremely good query, and it’s a query that ‑‑ the reply, I don’t assume, is what I would like the reply to be. Generally I would like the reply to be, no, Jesus tells you that if you happen to flip the opposite cheek, that your enemy shall be so impressed by your kindness and your meekness that he’ll say, you already know what? I shouldn’t hit this individual once more. Actually, what I ought to do is ask this individual, why are you the way in which that you’re? And I may inform them, effectively, the rationale I’m this fashion is due to Jesus. They usually may say, effectively, inform me extra about Jesus. Like I hope that occurs, and which may occur. That sort of factor can occur and that sort of factor has occurred. However it’s additionally very seemingly you’re simply going to get hit once more after which mocked for being so silly, and following Jesus opens you as much as that.
Jesus was ridiculed. Jesus was mocked. There have been lots of people who, as an alternative of following Jesus or being so impressed by the lifetime of Jesus, they completely rejected it, and that’s one of many the reason why the cross is such an offense. You realize, we’ve had 2,000 years to get used to the thought of the cross, however when Paul’s out evangelizing, educating the message of self‑sacrifice for others, educating the message that the Messiah, the king of all, gave his life on a cross, it was foolishness to the Gentiles and a stumbling block to the Jews, however to these of us who’re known as, it’s the facility and the knowledge of God. We see one thing completely different in that than different folks do.
And so what meaning is, by embodying the message of the cross, we very effectively could merely be opening ourselves as much as persecution or to mockery or to appear like fools for the sake of Christ. However our aim is to not solely do the issues that can rework the world. Numerous issues we do may not rework the world. If our aim was to remodel the world, that might open up the door to leaving the teachings of Jesus behind and easily going with what works. You realize, attempting to be very pragmatic, attempting to assume, effectively, it will have an effect, that received’t have an effect, so I’ll do that and never that, and that’s not the way in which Jesus desires us to consider this. Jesus offers us issues which may work in some cases, however fairly often received’t. And when it doesn’t, he says rejoice anyway that you simply’ve been thought of worthy to be persecuted. You realize, blessed are those that are persecuted for the sake of righteousness.
However I believe our mission within the issues Jesus says shouldn’t be about pragmatism and it’s not about if we do that, then everybody shall be so impressed that they’ll develop into followers of Jesus. Moderately, I believe what it’s is to symbolize God and his faithfulness and his goodness right into a world that’s missing it, and that’s what it means to be the salt of the earth, to be the sunshine of the world, to be a metropolis on a hill.
You are able to do loads with coercion and drive. Individuals have. Like, there have been large adjustments on this world due to coercion, drive, violence, and all of that. However that’s not ‑‑ our job shouldn’t be transformation by no matter means mandatory. Our job is to comply with Jesus, to point out the world who God is. Why will we love our enemies? It may not change our enemies, however he says, “Love your enemies that you could be be sons of your Father who’s in heaven, who causes the rain to fall on the simply and the unjust and the solar to shine on the nice and the evil.” Once you have a look at that, it’s saying the rationale you do it’s as a result of that’s who God is. He says, “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be known as sons of God.” Like, why are we peacemakers? In order that we could be kids of God, we could be like God. And so after we are peacemakers, after we love our enemies, I don’t know what it’ll do to others. I hope and pray that it’s going to change them, however even Paul says, “I planted, Apollos watered, God offers the rise.” If there’s change, that’s what God does.
In Matthew 13, Jesus offers a parable concerning the wheat and the tares, or the wheat and the weeds. And there’s the query, ought to we go pull up all of the weeds? It’s like, no, that’s not what you do. You be wheat. You be the very best wheat that you would be able to be. You be a devoted presence. You present the world a greater manner. You be a kingdom of monks. You be a holy and royal nation. Like, you symbolize God’s goodness to the world, however God’s the one who will change the world, and that’s the hope that we dwell with, that there shall be a day when the angels come they usually separate the wheat and the weeds.
So I believe the Sermon on the Mount is giving us one thing that, sure, hopefully, prayerfully, folks will see it and be remodeled. I believe Christianity has carried out an amazing quantity of excellent on this world, and I believe it has made adjustments, so reward God for that. However my aim is to not change the world by any means mandatory as a result of that may open up the door to quite a lot of issues that Jesus didn’t say. Jesus offers me a manner of remodeling my life into conformity with the picture and the desire of God, and if I try this, then hopefully folks will see the goodness of God in me and locally of religion. Whether or not or not they alter, that’s God’s enterprise and that’s their enterprise, however I’m speculated to be devoted regardless.
WES: Yeah. Yeah, and I really like how you place it within the e-book, that I don’t know if it’ll change others, however I do know that it’s going to change us, that it’s going to change you to be obedient to Jesus. It does change us. And it’s fascinating; we dwell in a time proper now that’s sort of fascinating to observe, the place non secular folks, even those that declare to be followers of Jesus, are making claims that, effectively, turning the opposite cheek ‑‑ and, for some cause, that all the time will get used, even these phrases ‑‑ “Turning the opposite cheek used to work, or it labored at one time, but it surely doesn’t work anymore, so now shouldn’t be the time to show the opposite cheek. Now could be the time to do these different issues.” And such as you stated, we will’t accomplish the desire of Jesus by abandoning the way in which of Jesus. We are able to’t discover a completely different option to dwell our lives and to perform on the planet and assume that we’re engaging in the desire of Jesus. The desire of Jesus is for us to be obedient, is for us to be devoted and to do what he stated regardless, and, as you stated, to have a look at the lifetime of Jesus after which his apostles and the primary 200 years of Christian historical past and assume that, quote‑unquote, “it labored” to show the opposite cheek again then, as in the event that they weren’t persecuted, as in the event that they weren’t thrown to the lions, as in the event that they didn’t face every kind of horrible persecution precisely as Jesus stated that they might, after which to assume that our world right now is a lot extra hostile than their world that we will’t truly do what Jesus informed us to do. It’s simply ludicrous. However it’s actually a misunderstanding, I believe, of your entire gospel, of the cross itself, actually.
TRAVIS: Properly, I imply, such as you stated, if you happen to learn one thing Jesus says, the first step, after which step two, you ask your self, will this work, and the way you reply that query depends upon whether or not or not you’ll comply with it, you’ve missed the boat solely. The query shouldn’t be will this work? The query is, is that this devoted to Jesus?
WES: Yeah, yeah, completely. I met a man one time, he was a latest ‑‑ I wish to say convert. He had not too long ago been baptized, however I believe that he’d sort of been rushed into baptism, possibly, I’m unsure. However he was a jail guard and he labored in an area jail, after which he had a Bible examine with me to say, I’m sort of second‑guessing whether or not or not I wish to be a Christian. Actually, he was toying with the thought of being a Muslim as a result of he was listening to the phrases of Jesus, and he stated, I work in a violent atmosphere with plenty of criminals and this turning the opposite cheek and loving your enemies, I simply don’t know that I can purchase into that. And I believed this may be essentially the most intellectually sincere cause for rejecting Jesus that I’ve ever heard.
And on the finish of the day, I simply need to current Jesus, and whether or not or not he accepts him ‑‑ I can’t say, effectively, if you happen to don’t like that model of Jesus, right here’s a unique model of Jesus that you simply would possibly recognize extra, or, hey, if you happen to give this a strive, it’d give you the results you want. Jesus is admittedly, actually sincere about that is going to get you in quite a lot of bother, and if you happen to’re not prepared to select up your cross and comply with me, if you happen to’re not able to die for me, then don’t develop into my disciple. And the truth that we’ve got kind of buried Jesus’ teachings about what it truly seems to be prefer to be a follower of Jesus and haven’t put these out entrance, I believe goes to point out that we’ve had a unique strategy to creating Christians whereas possibly not making disciples.
TRAVIS: I believe that’s a very good distinction. I’ve had a scenario the place there’s somebody I used to be learning with who’s not a believer, and it was fascinating. It wasn’t just like the miracles had been the issue with coming to religion. It was an atheist. It wasn’t just like the flood ‑‑ even this individual stated there was in all probability a flood. It was simply fascinating, like a few of the issues that they had been keen to simply accept, but it surely was studying the Sermon on the Mount and Jesus saying love your enemies and Jesus saying don’t resist the evil individual, they usually’re like that’s ludicrous. You’ll be able to’t dwell in a world like that. Evil folks will simply run amok all over. And also you’re tempted to say, effectively, Jesus doesn’t actually imply that, however as quickly as you begin altering what Jesus says to make his message extra palatable, you’re not creating disciples of Jesus. You’re creating disciples of a tradition that thinks it will work effectively otherwise you’re creating disciples of your self.
A lot of the historical past of interpretation of the Sermon on the Mount ‑‑ and I believe we see it loads right now, and it’s one thing that I attempt to not do within the e-book, however we’ll see how good I do. However a lot of the historical past is a historical past of simply looking for inventive methods to get across the teachings of Jesus. How can we love our enemies? Properly, okay, you’re keen on your enemies. Properly, who’re my enemies? Properly, that’s not making use of to politics. That’s not making use of to foreigners. That’s not making use of if you happen to’re on this profession. That doesn’t apply if you happen to’re ‑‑ and it’s like, man, okay, I don’t know, possibly. However as an alternative of studying the Sermon on the Mount looking for as few methods as potential to use it, what if we actually grappled with, what if I utilized it right here? What if I utilized it to this individual? What if I utilized it to this political celebration? What if I utilized it in a time of warfare? Would that change who I’m? And I want we might search to use it extra and at the very least be keen to confess the place we fall brief relatively than attempt to change what Jesus says to make it really easy that it doesn’t influence our lives.
One of many issues that you simply’ll see as you learn the Sermon on the Mount is Jesus will typically examine his educating to simply what different folks do. He’s like, “Your righteousness ought to exceed the scribes and Pharisees.” He says, about greeting those that greet you, “Don’t the Gentiles do the identical?” He says, “Don’t the tax collectors do the identical?” He says, “Don’t provide lengthy prayers the way in which the Gentiles do.” Like so most of the teachings are rooted on this concept that there’s a surpassing righteousness, one thing that’s completely different than the tradition. So if we then interpret loving your enemies to imply, you already know, don’t kill the man down the road who wronged you, effectively, okay, however everybody agrees you shouldn’t try this. You realize, if you happen to say, it’s okay to kill offered you might have a very good cause, effectively, then, that’s ‑‑ once more, everybody agrees with that. Jesus is asking us to one thing that not everybody agrees with, and in case your intuitions really feel that it’s fallacious, you may be proper. Perhaps Jesus is saying one thing that we are going to have an preliminary visceral response to. It is not going to sit effectively with us. Actually, if Jesus isn’t doing that, then it’s seemingly that it’s not truly Jesus you’re listening to anymore.
WES: Yeah, yeah. And I take into consideration what number of issues Jesus says within the Sermon on the Mount that apply to so many alternative folks in so many alternative conditions with so many alternative views, particularly right now. We’ve talked loads about loving your enemies, however we may additionally speak about sexual immorality and the way Jesus says, hey, it’s higher to pluck your eye out or reduce your hand off than it’s to enter hell with your whole components.
TRAVIS: Yeah, there’s a thousand different issues. Yeah.
WES: And so to take Jesus significantly on that’s simply as radical in our tradition right now. However, once more, I hear Christian non secular folks discussing what does the Bible say about sexual immorality or what does it say about sexual ethics? And we debate loads about, effectively, what does Romans 1 imply or what does 1 Corinthians imply? And we speak loads about Paul, and folks will even make the declare that, effectively, Jesus was for loving everybody and Jesus wouldn’t be for coming down arduous on sexual sin, and it’s like, wait, have you ever learn the Sermon on the Mount, both? And there’s a lot there that applies to all of us if we take it significantly.
TRAVIS: Yeah, lust itself ‑‑ earlier than you even get to what issues individuals are doing, lust itself, he says, is one thing that you ought to be lopping off limbs for. And so it goes to point out that Jesus ‑‑ with regards to cash, you already know, it’s arduous to take significantly what he says about cash. When he says, “Don’t retailer up for your self treasure on earth,” I want he would say, like, “Don’t greedily retailer up for your self treasure on earth,” as a result of then I may simply say, okay, so so long as you do it with out greed, you’re good, or you might take what he says and you might discover some angle to make it loads simpler to simply accept. However, actually, I believe if you happen to’re storing up for your self treasure on earth, a accountability comes with that to be giving that treasure away, and so there are quite a lot of ways in which we will learn what Jesus says, whether or not it’s sexual ethics, whether or not it’s wealth, whether or not it’s anger.
There’s truly a humorous factor within the historical past of translation ‑‑ or of the copying of the Sermon on the Mount, the place a phrase will get added to what he says about anger. The place he says, “I say to you to not be offended along with your brother,” and it provides the phrase “with out trigger.” That’s in a few of the manuscripts, and it’s not within the earliest ones, however ultimately that received added, and it’s very easy to see why as a result of, you already know, you may see, you already know, don’t be offended, however, dude, there’s some causes you gotta get offended at somebody, and so we have to simply sort of reduce it slightly bit. However then you definitely ask the query, effectively, everybody agrees you could be offended with trigger. If there’s a ok trigger, that wouldn’t separate you from the scribes and Pharisees or from anybody. Everybody would agree with that.
And so, yeah, you undergo, and whether or not it’s divorce, oaths ‑‑ that’s a troublesome one as a result of, you already know, how typically will we add to our “sure” and “no” as a way to make ourselves sound extra credible? And what Jesus desires us to do is don’t add extra phrases to your “sure” and “no.” As a substitute, dwell a lifetime of credibility. That’s loads tougher. It takes loads longer. However it’s best to dwell in such a manner that individuals will hear your “sure” and it’ll sound the identical as if you happen to stated, “Upon the lifetime of my kids, I give my oath.” You realize, you don’t want so as to add all these phrases if you happen to’re truly residing with the kind of integrity that Jesus is asking us to have.
However it applies to quite a lot of areas, and there’s nothing I learn within the Sermon on the Mount and I stroll away considering, whew, okay, I received that one mastered. It’s like each time I learn it, I find yourself recognizing, okay, there’s extra to being a follower of Jesus than what I’m snug with.
WES: Yeah. And it goes again to what you stated a minute in the past, that we discover every kind of inventive methods of getting round what Jesus says, and we are saying, effectively, you already know, that’s clearly hyperbole. He doesn’t actually need us to chop our hand off or pluck our eye out. And I might say I agree. I agree; it’s hyperbole. However I all the time use for example, if I inform you that it’s raining cats and canine exterior, and also you say, effectively, that’s simply ‑‑ that’s a determine of speech; you don’t imply that actually, and then you definitely go exterior as if it’s not raining in any respect, then you definitely’ve made an enormous error in the way you’ve interpreted what I’m saying. So sure, you’re proper, it’s a determine of speech, however you’re fallacious to dismiss it as if a determine of speech or a metaphor or a hyperbole doesn’t truly imply one thing vital. Actually, typically we use these sorts of hyperboles or metaphors or figures of speech as a result of a plain, simply floor‑degree, very fundamental manner of claiming it wouldn’t seize how vital and important that is.
TRAVIS: Yeah. Hyperbole signifies that a fact has been exaggerated. It doesn’t imply that you simply’ve stated one thing false, you already know? And I believe that’s a extremely good illustration with the cats and canine. However, yeah, so Jesus says, you already know, plucking out eyes and chopping off palms ‑‑ okay, the early church wasn’t actually doing that. However the query it’s best to ask, okay, what have you ever truly sacrificed? What have you ever amputated or gotten rid of to eliminate lust? I do know lots of people ‑‑ you stroll round with a smartphone in your pocket, you might have entry to pornography 24/7. Okay. Would you be keen to dwell with out that? Is that one thing you might amputate for the dominion? Is that one thing you might eliminate?
You realize, I believe the thought of giving up issues for the dominion as a result of the sacrifice you make now could be far much less damaging than hell shall be, then these are sacrifices we have to make. However quite a lot of occasions, if we expect it’s hyperbole, we expect, okay, so that you shouldn’t lust, and we simply sort of stroll away. However we don’t actually take into consideration the sacrifice that ‑‑ or I don’t wish to say “we” don’t ‑‑ some folks do ‑‑ but it surely’s widespread or straightforward to not try this.
WES: Yeah. Properly, I believe that that leads very well to our final query, and that’s, why is it price it? If following Jesus actually does demand sacrifice, if it does demand, on the worst, taking over our cross actually and dying for Jesus, if it calls us to this lifetime of self‑sacrifice, if it calls us to not retailer up treasures on earth, to even hyperbolically reduce off our hand and pull out our eye ‑‑ if that’s the life that Jesus calls us to, then why is it price it, and the way can we current it to different folks in a fantastic and compelling manner? How will we develop into disciples, and the way will we persuade others to develop into disciples if it truly is so pricey?
TRAVIS: Properly, I don’t assume it’ll be straightforward, however I do assume there are a few issues to remember as you think about why you comply with Jesus, and a kind of ‑‑ and this isn’t possibly essentially the most thrilling one, however the truth that it’s simply true, Jesus actually is ‑‑ like God actually did come to earth. Jesus actually is Lord. You realize, after we speak concerning the gospel ‑‑ possibly it was N.T. Wright who stated one thing just like the gospel shouldn’t be the nice suggestion or the nice invitation or the nice recommendation. It’s the excellent news, and the information is declaring one thing that’s true. Jesus actually is Lord. And so if you happen to care about doing what’s proper and what’s true on the planet, then it does matter.
However secondly, I might say that fact can actually be good and delightful. That fact of what Jesus says, it takes maybe an amazing quantity of religion to see it, but it surely actually is a extra lovely world after we love our enemies relatively than desirous to destroy them, or it truly is a extra lovely world when, as an alternative of considering how a lot wealth can I accumulate for myself, I put my belief in God and I retailer up my treasure in heaven, which I believe truly is a reference to utilizing your wealth for the nice of others and for the poor. It truly is a extra lovely world, and I believe we see that after we see acts of generosity. We recognize these. And after we see tales of forgiveness, we recognize it. We are able to see magnificence in that. And Jesus is asking us to dwell in a kingdom that isn’t outlined by violence, the buildup of wealth, by hatred, by energy, by rising up in standing, however relatively it’s a kingdom the place the least are the best and the final is first, and never everybody finds magnificence in that. You realize, there are some who famously assume that that can result in absolute chaos and the weak spot of humanity, however I consider there’s magnificence in that, and it’s one thing that the extra we see it, I believe the higher issues are.
However even with these issues, Jesus is particularly requested that query by Peter. That is on the finish of Matthew 19. Peter is saying, Lord, we’ve left every part for you. Like, is that this price it? And Jesus offers a solution, and it’s a solution that accommodates fact and it’s a solution that accommodates magnificence, but it surely’s additionally a solution that accommodates hope. He says that there’s no person who, having given up household or possessions or the farms or all this stuff for the dominion who is not going to obtain again 100 occasions extra so within the regeneration or within the new world. And he says when that day comes, you’ll obtain a lot extra, together with everlasting life.
And I believe ‑‑ I believe, even now, it’s like once you have a look at the church household, once you have a look at the neighborhood of Christ, I’ve extra moms and I’ve extra brothers and sisters. I’ve household and I’ve neighborhood, and that’s one thing that makes the struggling price it. Once you endure alone, there’s one thing tragic about that and there’s one thing in that that makes it actually arduous to proceed on, however once you endure and once you make sacrifices as a part of a neighborhood for the widespread good with different people who find themselves doing the identical, then you might have a fellowship in that and a sharing in that that’s transformative for your self and for that neighborhood. And like we’ve talked about, possibly typically, on the planet round us, that that’s one thing we pray for.
I bear in mind years in the past, residing in Monroe, Louisiana, there was a flood that got here and it flooded our home, and my spouse Lauren was pregnant on the time and we ended up having to depart our home, however you already know who we left with? Some members of the church got here and we had been in a position to stroll in waist‑deep water from our home to the closest highway. They’d a automotive ready for us. They took us to their home and we stayed with them for a number of days. After which we needed to get some issues mounted on our home and we stayed with different members of the church. We had a church that we didn’t even ‑‑ we’d by no means even gone to earlier than despatched us cash to assist with a few of the repairs. There have been those who we knew who had been household; there have been individuals who we didn’t know who had been household. And my household was additionally very sort to us, however we didn’t dwell close to any of my household. My household didn’t dwell in Louisiana, however we had been nonetheless surrounded by household. And I believe following Jesus creates a neighborhood of household, and that’s the kind of factor that may enable you overcome so most of the obstacles of this life.
Plus, lastly, the resurrection and the brand new world. There’s a brand new world coming. There’s a regeneration, and the resurrection actually is why doing what’s true and delightful issues. The resurrection is admittedly why it issues that Jesus is Lord, as a result of the struggling we’ve got on this life, I imply, to make use of the phrases of Paul, wouldn’t be price it if there weren’t one thing everlasting and true on the opposite facet. He says we might be, of all folks, most pitied.
And so I believe the rationale we do that, it’s with hope and with belief that what God says will come about, and that’s why the gospel of Matthew ‑‑ we’re known as to hold our cross, and the Sermon on the Mount does take Jesus to the cross, however that’s not the place the gospel ends. The gospel ends with the resurrected Lord being worshiped on a mountain with all authority in heaven and on earth. The story ends with a fee to exit and to seek out, inside the entire nations, those that shall be disciples of the one true king and those that will give their allegiance to him. The resurrection is the place the entire story culminates.
So like Philippians 2, Jesus was equal with God, and but he “didn’t regard equality with God a factor to be grasped, however he emptied himself, he took the type of a servant, he got here within the look of human, he humbled himself and have become obedient to the purpose of loss of life, even loss of life on a cross. Due to this fact, God extremely exalted him and bestowed upon him a reputation which is above each identify, that on the identify of Jesus each knee would bow, of these in heaven, these on earth, and people underneath the earth, and each tongue would confess that Jesus Christ is Lord of the glory of God the Father.” The one who humbles himself shall be exalted.
There’s a large quantity of humility that is available in following Jesus. You’ll be able to’t put your self first, however God will see, he’ll exalt, he’ll increase you up, and I believe that makes it price it.
WES: Yeah, completely. Amen, Brother. I really like the already and the not but of what you’re saying, Brother. Thanks. Thanks for this dialog. Thanks on your e-book. I can’t look forward to different folks to learn it. It’s incredible. And thanks most of all on your work within the kingdom, Brother.
TRAVIS: Thanks a lot, and thanks for studying the e-book and for giving me your ideas. Thanks for this chance. I really like the work that you simply do. I really like your podcast. I really like your books and your writing. You’ve had a optimistic influence on my life and my ministry, and it means a complete lot.
WES: Thanks, Brother.
Thanks a lot for listening to the Radically Christian Bible Research Podcast. When you have only a second, we might love so that you can charge and assessment this podcast on iTunes or wherever you’re listening. It actually does assist extra folks uncover this content material. I additionally wish to thank our company who be part of me every week; Beth Tabor, who volunteers her time to transcribe this podcast; and our complete McDermott Highway Church household who make it potential for us to supply this Bible examine for you. Now let’s all exit and love like Jesus.
