This episode of the Radically Christian Bible Examine Podcast tackles some essential questions on discipleship and following Jesus in at the moment’s world. What does it actually imply to be a disciple of Christ? How will we reconcile Jesus’ radical teachings, like loving our enemies and never storing up treasures on earth, with the realities of recent life? The dialog explores the strain between obedience to Jesus’ instructions and the challenges of dwelling them out in a world that usually appears at odds with Christian values.
The dialogue facilities on Matthew’s gospel, inspecting the way it presents Jesus because the success of Previous Testomony prophecies and the last word authority. The podcast explores key ideas from the Sermon on the Mount, unpacking what it means to be salt and light-weight on this planet with out attempting to vary it by means of pressure. It addresses the character of Christian obedience, the position of forgiveness, and the hope of resurrection that makes discipleship worthwhile regardless of its prices.
The visitor for this episode is Travis Bookout, the preaching minister for the Maryville Church of Christ. Travis has written books on the gospels of John, Mark, and Matthew, and is at the moment engaged on his Doctorate of Academic Ministry from Southern Seminary. Travis brings each scholarly perception and sensible expertise to the dialog about discipleship and dwelling out the teachings of Jesus in at the moment’s world.
Be aware: Some hyperlinks could also be affiliate hyperlinks. That means, in case you select to purchase one thing by means of these hyperlinks, we obtain a small fee at no additional price to you.
Welcome to the Radically Christian Bible Examine Podcast. I’m your host, Wes McAdams. Right here we have now one objective: Be taught to like like Jesus. As lots of you recognize, we’re in the course of a collection on discipleship, and the gospel of Matthew has quite a bit to show us about being disciples of Jesus. My visitor at the moment simply completed a e-book on the gospel of Matthew, and it’s glorious. He has a lot knowledge to share with us. My visitor is Travis Bookout. Travis is the preaching minister for the Maryville Church of Christ. He’s written books on the gospel of John, Mark, and now Matthew, and is at the moment engaged on his Physician of Academic Ministry from Southern Seminary. He has been married to his spouse, Lauren, for 16 years, they usually have two sons, Oliver and Levi.
Earlier than we get to that Bible examine, I wish to learn from Matthew chapter 28, beginning in verse 18, which says, “Jesus got here and mentioned to them, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go subsequently and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them within the title of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, instructing them to look at all that I’ve commanded you. And behold, I’m with you all the time, to the top of the age.’”
I hope that at the moment’s dialogue and dialog and Bible examine is encouraging to you. I hope that it provides you a greater appreciation of the gospel account of Matthew, and, as all the time, I hope that this dialog helps all of us be taught to like like Jesus.
WES: Travis Bookout, welcome to the podcast, Brother.
TRAVIS: Hey, thanks a lot. Glad to be right here.
WES: It’s unbelievable to get to go to with you, and I’m enthusiastic about this dialog. I’m enthusiastic about telling folks about your new e-book on Matthew, God With Us. It was unbelievable. I actually loved studying that, and I can’t anticipate different folks to learn it, as effectively. However at the moment we’re particularly going to speak about discipleship, and I’m asking all the company which might be a part of this collection on discipleship what their take or their definition of discipleship is. So how would you outline what it means to be a disciple?
TRAVIS: That’s an awesome query, and it’s one which, you know, I don’t know that I’ve an excellent distinctive or inventive reply. What I wrote down was being a devoted learner who shares and embodies the beliefs, actions, and mission of the instructor, and I believe that’s principally ‑‑ it’s a metamorphosis into the picture of the instructor by means of listening and thru following and imitation, and I believe that’s finally what Jesus calls us to be, and, you recognize, Matthew has some useful methods of taking that from only a definition to one thing you truly embody and do.
WES: Yeah. And I really like lots of these phrases that you just used, transformation into his picture and embodiment, and Matthew does give us a reasonably distinctive tackle discipleship. So I’d love to listen to your ideas, generally, concerning the gospel of Matthew even earlier than we discuss concerning the specifics of how that pertains to discipleship. However what did you discover as you could have been finding out? I’m positive you’ve been pouring into and permitting this e-book to pour into you fairly a bit right here lately, so what’s your tackle the gospel of Matthew?
TRAVIS: Good e-book. I prefer it. Matthew’s unbelievable, and it’s ‑‑ you recognize, every of the gospels ‑‑ you recognize, particularly you could have just like the three synoptic gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, they usually have lots of similarities, and one of many issues that I attempted to deal with within the e-book that I wrote are among the ‑‑ what makes them distinctive from each other, and Matthew has a few issues that appear to be ‑‑ not that they’re absent within the different ones, however they’re a particular level of emphasis within the gospel of Matthew.
A type of key concepts is that Jesus is the success of so many scriptures from the Previous Testomony, or from the Hebrew scriptures, and the way these come to a deeper and fuller that means once you look to Jesus. And what that that means typically represents, I believe, is that Jesus must be seen compared to lots of key figures and key concepts from the Previous Testomony.
So one factor that may typically be problematic for readers is you learn by means of Matthew, and he’ll say “This occurred to satisfy what the prophet mentioned,” and he’ll quote, like, Hosea 11:1, and also you go and also you learn Hosea 11:1, and it says, “When Israel was a youth, I cherished him, and out of Egypt I referred to as my son.” And also you learn that and also you assume, effectively, okay, that’s about Israel popping out of Egypt, like that’s the Exodus story. And then you definitely hold studying Hosea and also you come to seek out out that the son is a disobedient son who retains going after idols and all of this stuff. And also you assume, how on this planet does Jesus fulfill a passage that’s about Israel being disobedient?
And I believe the way in which you do this ‑‑ and that is simply form of an instance of the kind of factor that Matthew frequently does when he makes use of the phrase “success,” is Jesus must be seen because the devoted Israel who comes to satisfy and full what was missing within the Israel that God had referred to as. So Israel was referred to as with a mission and, repeatedly, they don’t fulfill their mission or they fall in need of their mission, and so Jesus, as an Israelite, comes and takes on the identification of Israel and he fulfills what was missing. So Jesus does go to Egypt and he has his personal Egypt story, his personal Exodus story the place he comes out of Egypt. Jesus does go to the wilderness, however the place Israel failed and a era died, Jesus is tempted however is overwhelmingly profitable. Jesus is ready to go up on the mountain like Moses did and get to the center of what the regulation was all the time meant to supply within the Israelites, and he’s attempting to supply that in his disciples, in order that, as Israel is named to be a light-weight to the nations, the disciples may be the sunshine of the world. And simply throughout you see that Jesus is taking up these completely different roles. He takes on a job like Moses. He takes on a job like Israel. He takes on a job like David or the son of David. After which, in each one in all them, you see that Jesus is just not solely taking up that position, however he’s doing it in higher and in superior methods than might have been seen or acknowledged beforehand. In order that’s one of many distinctive ways in which Matthew tells the Jesus story.
Alongside the way in which, he does a number of different issues. He presents Jesus as this authoritative instructor. There are like 5 main speeches within the gospel of Matthew. In case you take these speeches out and you are taking out the start narrative and, relying on the manuscripts, the resurrection narratives, Matthew is a complete lot like Mark. It follows lots of the identical construction, lots of the identical chronology, and even the identical wording. However Matthew has a start narrative and a higher resurrection narrative, after which it has these 5 speeches interspersed. And I believe these 5 speeches ‑‑ they offer us deeper perception into what the dominion is all about, the dominion message, in order that’s a key concept, is the thought of the dominion of heaven, and it reveals the way to dwell in that kingdom, the way to faithfully endure for that kingdom. It solutions among the mysteries of that kingdom. It reveals you the mindset of humility that’s important to the dominion, and the hope within the coming of the dominion.
And so you possibly can take a look at these 5 speeches, and afterwards you come to appreciate that Jesus is talking not solely with the authority that comes from some nice rabbi or some nice individual, however he’s talking with the very authority of God. So he’s launched within the e-book as “God with us,” and by the top of it he has all authority in heaven and on earth. Like there’s no one that can have all authority in heaven and on earth. The one that has all authority in heaven is God, and we’d see counterfeit authorities on earth, however Jesus is the one who truly is the supreme authority total.
And so Matthew ends ‑‑ I really like the Nice Fee. I believe it sums up a lot, and it’ll lead into our dialogue of discipleship. It ends with Jesus on a mountain. Like Moses went on a mountain, Jesus has been on a mountain frequently all through the gospel of Matthew. The mountain is a crucial setting. You realize, in Matthew 4, he’s on a mountain with Devil, and he’s provided all of the kingdoms of the earth, and he rejects them. After which Matthew 5, he goes up on a mountain once more to speak about his kingdom, the dominion that he’s truly representing and he does truly carry, and it’s the Sermon on the Mount. However then you definitely hold studying. He tells his disciples to be the sunshine on ‑‑ or town that’s on the mountain, you recognize, town on a hill, however it’s the identical Greek phrase as mountain. He goes again up on the mountain once more within the transfiguration, the place he’s actually in comparison with Moses and Elijah and is proven to be superior to them. The Mount of Olives is the place he goes earlier than he’s arrested.
After which the ultimate verses of Matthew, he’s again up on a mountain and he’s worshiped whereas he’s on that mountain. The disciples collect and worship with him, which, you recognize, in case you’re evaluating him to Moses, Moses went up on a mountain, however Moses wasn’t worshiped there; God is the one worshiped on the mountain. So Jesus is on the mountain, he’s being worshiped, after which he says, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me,” which is one thing that may solely be true of God, and it’s with the supreme authority of the divine being himself that Jesus gives the fee to exit and to make disciples.
So I believe all of that’s form of Matthew’s method of demonstrating that the entire story of Israel has been resulting in Jesus and is fulfilled in Jesus. And he comes not solely as an awesome Moses or an awesome son of David or Israel, however because the embodiment of God himself, with all authority to trigger us to exit and to rework the lives of individuals into changing into followers and disciples of his.
WES: Yeah, yeah. Amen. Effectively, it’s such a beautiful method that you just’ve laid all the things out, and I simply really feel like finding out the gospel accounts is so essential for Christians. I snort as a result of that must be apparent, I believe. However I believe again to rising up and, you recognize, what I heard in church, or simply the impression that I received ‑‑ I don’t know that anybody ever mentioned something like this, however I simply assume I received the impression that what actually mattered was the dying of Jesus, and we spent, it looks as if, little or no time speaking about who’s Jesus, his life, the way in which that he lived his life throughout these 33 years, the issues that he truly taught us to do.
I believe what appears to get emphasised ‑‑ that is what Scot McKnight calls “the gospel of sin administration.” That might not be authentic to him, however that concept that each one that basically issues is that Jesus was good, Jesus died on the cross to save lots of us, and now it is best to learn the epistles and do these issues there and never do the unhealthy issues. And going again to who’s Jesus and what did he train us to do, how did he train us to dwell is so elementary. If we’re going to be, as you mentioned, remodeled into the picture of our instructor, into the picture of our rabbi, we have now to know what he did, how he lived his life, and the issues that he has taught us to do.
So let’s discuss that concept of discipleship, and particularly to the gospel of Matthew, how does Matthew give us a novel perspective on what it means and appears wish to be a disciple?
TRAVIS: Effectively, one of many causes that I needed us to get to that mountaintop scene on the finish of the gospel of Matthew with the Nice Fee is as a result of Jesus could be very express there about what discipleship is. He says, “Make disciples of all of the nations.” So if Jesus has all authority, then meaning though there’s different kings and governors and issues like that all through the world, there’s all types of countries ‑‑ ever because the promise given to Abraham, there was this imaginative and prescient of the nations uniting along with Israel beneath the one true king, and Jesus is now that king, the one with all authority. That’s the way in which a king speaks. So he says, “Go into all of the nations and make disciples,” after which he follows that with two important elements of creating disciples, one in all which is baptizing them within the title of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, which, once more, in case you’re clues to the divine identification of Jesus, he’s on a mountain, he’s being worshiped, he has all authority in heaven and earth, and he’s named with the Father and the Holy Spirit within the baptismal system.
So anyway, you could have this description of baptizing within the title of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, however then he says, “instructing them to look at all that I’ve commanded you, and I’ll be with you all the time, even to the top of the age.” I believe that ultimate phrase, “I’ll be with you all the time,” is admittedly essential for discipleship, additionally, to know that we’re not doing this alone, that we’re not on our personal. It connects again to the primary fulfilled passage in Matthew. It’s from Isaiah 7:14, the place he’s given the title Emmanuel, which suggests “God with us.” And I believe, from the start, we’re instructed Jesus is God with us. On the finish, we get this image of him divine, on a mountain, saying, “and I will likely be with you all the time,” and there are a few clues in Matthew as to how he’s with us.
For instance, in Matthew 18, you could have Jesus saying, “The place two or three are gathered in my title, I’m there in your midst.” Like, he’s with us in the neighborhood of believers. You see that once more in Matthew 25, the place he separates the sheep and the goats, and he says, “Once I was bare, you clothed me. Once I was hungry, you fed me. Once I was in jail, you visited me.” They usually’re like, “When did we do that?” And he says, “As a lot as you probably did it to the least of those, my brothers, you’ve performed it to me.” And so how is Jesus with us? Effectively, in a technique, he’s with us by means of the group and he’s part of the group with us.
However all of that’s to say discipleship is one thing that we have to keep in mind is completed with the group and is completed with Jesus. Very troublesome to do on our personal, and we’re not referred to as to do it on our personal. We’re referred to as to be a metropolis on a hill, not a person standing up on a pleasant hill. However he does point out that it’s baptism after which instructing to look at all that Jesus says, and so disciples are baptized individuals who adopted the teachings of Jesus and practiced them.
So once you conclude with these phrases, what the reader is inspired to do is to assume, okay, so what did Jesus command? And so that you return to the start of Matthew and also you learn it once more, this time taking note of what sorts of issues did Jesus say. And if I’m supposed to look at all that Jesus has mentioned, effectively, it’s gonna make the Sermon on the Mount a extremely essential a part of discipleship. It’s gonna make Matthew 10, the second main speech, a extremely essential a part of discipleship, Matthew 13, Matthew 18 about forgiveness and about little ones versus nice ones within the kingdom. Like, humility goes to grow to be a necessary a part of discipleship.
And I believe it’s essential that Jesus was not just a few armchair theologian who sat there and spoke the phrases of the Sermon on the Mountain and mentioned go do it. If a disciple is somebody who learns but additionally imitates, it’s essential to know that Jesus not solely taught, but additionally did. And so when Jesus says issues like, “You’ve heard that it was mentioned a watch for a watch and a tooth for a tooth, however I say to you, if somebody slaps you on the cheek, flip the opposite to him additionally. If somebody sues you to your cloak, give him your tunic, additionally. If somebody forces you to go one mile, go together with him two” ‑‑ you retain studying Matthew, and each a type of issues Jesus says, he additionally does. He’s actually slapped on the face. He’s actually taken to courtroom unjustly. His garments are actually taken from him by his enemies. He’s actually compelled to march by Roman armies. It’s like Jesus ‑‑ I believe that’s intentional, that the issues Jesus teaches are additionally the issues he does.
So if we’re gonna be disciples, we gotta return by means of and see what he teaches and take a look at his life and see what he does, and his life leads him to the cross, and it’s no accident that he tells us, if we’re going to comply with him, we have now to hold our cross. Plenty of occasions following Jesus results in uncomfortable locations. It results in dying. And, I imply, I’m reminded of Bonhoeffer’s phrases in The Value of Discipleship, “When Christ calls a person, he bids him come and die,” and people are highly effective phrases, however, actually, that’s the decision of discipleship, to utterly lose your self in following Jesus wherever that takes you.
WES: Yeah. Effectively, there’s a lot in Matthew, as you’ve identified, about his authority, about obedience, about doing what he tells us to do as a king ‑‑ as you’d count on a king to do, could be to inform us what to do and the way to dwell our lives. So I believe that that brings up an attention-grabbing query, too, is nearly obedience. Actually, you mentioned it very well in your e-book. You mentioned, “Obedience is important, however not central. Jesus’ obedience is central.” So what did you imply by that? What does that imply, and why is it essential to form of hold in our minds that we have now to be obedient to the teachings of Jesus, however it isn’t our obedience, our obedience to do all of this stuff and don’t do all of this stuff, that truly saves us.
TRAVIS: Yeah. So, actually, that’s robust typically. Whenever you’re studying the gospel of Matthew otherwise you’re studying the e-book of Romans, like even the way in which they use the phrase righteousness, it’s not fairly the identical. You realize, in Matthew, righteousness is one thing, like, you do, you recognize? Fasting and praying and giving in Matthew 6 are all referred to as methods of working towards righteousness, and we’re instructed that our righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees. And so it positive appears like, man, if I’m going to be a righteous individual, I’ve to do all of these items.
However then you definitely learn Romans, and righteousness is like ‑‑ “There’s none that’s righteous, no not one,” and righteousness is a present from God to those that place their religion or allegiance ‑‑ I’ll in all probability borrow the phrase allegiance a pair occasions in my reply from Matthew Bates. He has some glorious books on understanding religion within the New Testomony. However once you give your religion to Christ, righteousness is a present from God that you may’t attain by yourself. So what will we do with that? And I believe one route folks have taken it’s to devalue the importance of obedience, and I don’t assume that’s the correct path.
Whenever you learn Matthew, like on the finish of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus has this comparability between the smart man and the silly man, these two builders. And who’s the smart one? He truly hears and does what Jesus says. So the Sermon on the Mount isn’t just for us to memorize or to be taught or to see important truths that may be nice if somebody did them someday. It’s not only a image of what heaven’s going to be like. You realize, some have prompt the Sermon on the Mount is that this glorified demonstration of what God truly expects, and what you’re presupposed to do is learn it, acknowledge how quick you fall, after which thank God for his grace, you recognize? And I believe that’s gonna occur, positive, however that’s not the aim of it. The aim of it’s so that you can truly do it. You realize, that’s how Jesus ends it. And so our obedience is completely important. It’s a must to obey Jesus if he’s truly your king, and I believe that placing your religion in Jesus is greater than only a psychological assent to a few details about him. It’s truly pledging your allegiance and constancy and faithfulness to him all through life, and that can embrace your coronary heart and your thoughts and your physique. And that’s a lot of what Jesus is attempting to do, is he’s attempting to unite these issues in order that not solely do you not commit adultery together with your physique, you don’t lust in your coronary heart. Jesus desires all of it in obedience to him, and so obedience is completely important.
Nonetheless, the truth is I’ve not absolutely obeyed the Sermon on the Mount, and that’s going to be a continuing battle. That’s going to be a continuing ‑‑ I’ll be grappling with that my complete life. And so what’s my hope of salvation? Jesus, I don’t assume, teaches the Sermon on the Mount and says, “And any mistake alongside the way in which will low cost you from my kingdom.” Actually, proper in the course of the Sermon on the Mount, he gives this prayer the place it describes, I believe, among the most essential kingdom values, and on this prayer, he says, “Our Father, who artwork in heaven, hallowed be your title. Your kingdom come, your will likely be performed on earth as it’s in heaven. Give us this present day our each day bread, and forgive us of our trespasses as we forgive those that trespass in opposition to us. Lead us not into temptation, however ship us from evil.”
However that phrase proper there about forgiveness, I believe, is admittedly essential as a result of it’s not the truth that I’m good at following the Sermon on the Mount; it’s the truth that I’m forgiven once I fail to comply with the Sermon on the Mount. And the place does that forgiveness come from? Effectively, it comes from the truth that Jesus was good in following the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus truly did the issues that he mentioned and he did them completely in order that Jesus, in loving his enemies, didn’t kill them or destroy them. He went to the cross for them. He tells us to like our enemies, however that’s not one thing he himself wouldn’t do. He not solely loves his enemies, he went to the cross to die for the salvation of his enemies in order that even me and also you and all of us who fail to dwell as much as his name can have hope in a God who loves even his enemies. He loves us and he saves us, and that’s why our obedience to Jesus as Lord is important. If we’re going to say that he’s king, if we’re going to say that he’s Lord, we have now to do what he says. However you’ll fail, and it’s the truth that he additionally loves his enemies, the truth that he additionally suffers for the nice of others, the truth that he gave his life for us signifies that we will have hope and assurance of our standing earlier than God even despite our failures.
WES: Yeah, yeah. I believe that that phrase ‑‑ and I additionally actually take pleasure in Matthew Bates’ work on that concept of allegiance and the way that’s tied to the pistis within the New Testomony, or religion. And, in truth, I’m preaching ‑‑ this entire 12 months right here at McDermott Street my theme is loving loyalty. I believe phrases like loyalty and allegiance and faithfulness are so essential. Actually, I began the 12 months by introducing this concept, and I talked about how, as a husband, I’m not an ideal husband. I mentioned you possibly can ask my spouse and she or he’ll inform you that I’m not an ideal husband, however I’m a devoted husband, and I’ve been devoted because the day we received married, however I’ve not been good.
And I believe we perceive that relating to marriage, that even in case you take a look at our marriage vows ‑‑ I imply, I used 1 Corinthians 13, I believe, in all probability in my marriage vows, however, you recognize, I made all of those guarantees to my spouse about how I used to be going to like her and I used to be gonna do all of this stuff. Have I stored all of these guarantees to a T? Have I dotted each I and crossed each T? Have I been good in my obedience to these marriage vows? Effectively, in all probability not in case you’re measuring it that method, however I’ve been devoted. I’ve been a devoted husband. Actually, my youngest son was a little bit appalled that I might declare to be devoted, and I mentioned, no, no, no, we should always be capable to say that, to say, I’ve been devoted to my guarantees, I’ve been devoted to my partner, my spouse.
And I believe the identical ought to be capable to be mentioned about God, that we have now been devoted to God. We have now been ‑‑ I believe there have been so many Israelites who might have mentioned that, who had been devoted to Yahweh. None of them had been good besides Jesus, however they had been devoted to Yahweh. The overwhelming majority, after all, had been
not simply not good, they had been additionally not devoted, and Jesus calls us to faithfulness, to loyalty, to allegiance. And does that embrace obedience? Completely it does. However he understands that we’re not good. He’s merciful. He’s gracious. He’s sluggish to anger and abounding in steadfast love. That is the way in which God has all the time been.
However I believe that we ‑‑ as you mentioned, we go to this point ‑‑ I used to take heed to lots of reformed, Calvinist kind of instructing that actually train concerning the Sermon on the Mount, that that must be your response, is learn it and say, oh, what a sinner I’m, after which simply be grateful that Jesus has saved you with none implication. No, no, no. Now it’s time to go to work and be obedient to the teachings of Jesus. And that is truly ‑‑ if we’re going to take Jesus significantly, we have now to not solely take him significantly when he gives to die for us and to cleanse us of our sins, however we additionally should take him significantly when he says construct your life on my teachings, go and obey all the things I’ve taught you to do and train others to do the identical factor. So it’s each. It’s sure, we’re forgiven as a result of we’re imperfect, however we’re additionally referred to as to a lifetime of devoted obedience in Christ.
TRAVIS: Yeah, I believe that’s completely proper. And yeah, it’s such as you get to the top of the Sermon on the Mount and it’s a name to go and do it. You get to the top of the gospel of Matthew as a complete, defining what discipleship is, it’s a name to look at all of the issues that he has commanded. So like doing is crucial, however then, as you learn by means of it, you get to Matthew 18, the place you could have this man who owes this debt, can by no means in 1,000,000 years repay, and the king forgives him of it. I imply, so forgiveness is completely part of the system as a result of that’s who God is and it’s why we should always forgive different folks, as a result of we’re presupposed to be demonstrating to the world round us who God is. That’s why you obey. I imply, you don’t obey as a result of God is in want and he can’t make issues work on this world with out us. God can do what God desires to do, however our fee is to indicate individuals who God is, and forgiveness is a necessary a part of that. So that ought to inspire us to be forgiving folks, but additionally it should thrill us and fill us with pleasure that we serve a forgiving God.
And so, yeah, you’re not gonna completely embody the Sermon on the Mount. You gained’t be the right husband. You gained’t be the right citizen. You gained’t be the right follower of Jesus, however you may be forgiven. And such as you mentioned ‑‑ and I believe that’s an awesome distinction, you may be devoted. He can know that your allegiance is with him even together with your failures. It’s the development of your life, you recognize? The dedication you’ve made within the development of your life into discipleship and into following him, I believe, is what defines our allegiance and our faithfulness.
WES: Yeah, yeah, completely. Let’s form of change gears a little bit bit, however nonetheless on the subject of the Nice Fee, there may be this fee that Jesus provides his followers on the finish of this gospel account to enter all of the world, to make disciples, however on the similar time, you make the purpose in your e-book that following Jesus, particularly following his teachings within the Sermon on the Mount, is just not about altering the world for Jesus. I believe typically we’ve gotten it into our head that our job because the church or our job as Christians is to go and make the world a greater place, that we’re presupposed to pressure our neighbors to comply with Jesus, to implement methods or to implement insurance policies that mirror God’s will and to make the world extra obedient to God as a result of we’re Christians. So what’s the excellence there? How will we distinguish between being salt and light-weight and making disciples, however on the similar time recognizing that our job is to not take the world over and make it higher for Jesus? That’s not what the Sermon on the Mount’s about.
TRAVIS: Yeah. So I believe that’s a extremely good query, and it’s a query that ‑‑ the reply, I don’t assume, is what I need the reply to be. Generally I need the reply to be, no, Jesus tells you that in case you flip the opposite cheek, that your enemy will likely be so impressed by your kindness and your meekness that he’ll say, you recognize what? I shouldn’t hit this individual once more. Actually, what I ought to do is ask this individual, why are you the way in which that you’re? And I might inform them, effectively, the explanation I’m this manner is due to Jesus. They usually might say, effectively, inform me extra about Jesus. Like I hope that occurs, and that may occur. That kind of factor can occur and that kind of factor has occurred. Nevertheless it’s additionally very probably you’re simply going to get hit once more after which mocked for being so silly, and following Jesus opens you as much as that.
Jesus was ridiculed. Jesus was mocked. There have been lots of people who, as a substitute of following Jesus or being so impressed by the lifetime of Jesus, they completely rejected it, and that’s one of many explanation why the cross is such an offense. You realize, we’ve had 2,000 years to get used to the thought of the cross, however when Paul’s out evangelizing, instructing the message of self‑sacrifice for others, instructing the message that the Messiah, the king of all, gave his life on a cross, it was foolishness to the Gentiles and a stumbling block to the Jews, however to these of us who’re referred to as, it’s the facility and the knowledge of God. We see one thing completely different in that than different folks do.
And so what meaning is, by embodying the message of the cross, we very effectively might merely be opening ourselves as much as persecution or to mockery or to seem like fools for the sake of Christ. However our objective is to not solely do the issues that can rework the world. Plenty of issues we do may not rework the world. If our objective was to rework the world, that may open up the door to leaving the teachings of Jesus behind and easily going with what works. You realize, attempting to be very pragmatic, attempting to assume, effectively, it will have an effect, that gained’t have an effect, so I’ll do that and never that, and that’s not the way in which Jesus desires us to consider this. Jesus provides us issues that may work in some situations, however fairly often gained’t. And when it doesn’t, he says rejoice anyway that you just’ve been thought-about worthy to be persecuted. You realize, blessed are those that are persecuted for the sake of righteousness.
However I believe our mission within the issues Jesus says is just not about pragmatism and it’s not about if we do that, then everybody will likely be so impressed that they’ll grow to be followers of Jesus. Reasonably, I believe what it’s is to symbolize God and his faithfulness and his goodness right into a world that’s missing it, and that’s what it means to be the salt of the earth, to be the sunshine of the world, to be a metropolis on a hill.
You are able to do quite a bit with coercion and pressure. Individuals have. Like, there have been large modifications on this world due to coercion, pressure, violence, and all of that. However that’s not ‑‑ our job is just not transformation by no matter means needed. Our job is to comply with Jesus, to indicate the world who God is. Why will we love our enemies? It may not change our enemies, however he says, “Love your enemies that you could be be sons of your Father who’s in heaven, who causes the rain to fall on the simply and the unjust and the solar to shine on the nice and the evil.” Whenever you take a look at that, it’s saying the explanation you do it’s as a result of that’s who God is. He says, “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be referred to as sons of God.” Like, why are we peacemakers? In order that we may be kids of God, we may be like God. And so once we are peacemakers, once we love our enemies, I don’t know what it is going to do to others. I hope and pray that it’s going to change them, however even Paul says, “I planted, Apollos watered, God provides the rise.” If there may be change, that’s what God does.
In Matthew 13, Jesus provides a parable concerning the wheat and the tares, or the wheat and the weeds. And there’s the query, ought to we go pull up all of the weeds? It’s like, no, that’s not what you do. You be wheat. You be the perfect wheat that you may be. You be a devoted presence. You present the world a greater method. You be a kingdom of monks. You be a holy and royal nation. Like, you symbolize God’s goodness to the world, however God’s the one who will change the world, and that’s the hope that we dwell with, that there will likely be a day when the angels come they usually separate the wheat and the weeds.
So I believe the Sermon on the Mount is giving us one thing that, sure, hopefully, prayerfully, folks will see it and be remodeled. I believe Christianity has performed an amazing quantity of fine on this world, and I believe it has made modifications, so reward God for that. However my objective is to not change the world by any means needed as a result of that may open up the door to lots of issues that Jesus didn’t say. Jesus provides me a method of reworking my life into conformity with the picture and the desire of God, and if I do this, then hopefully folks will see the goodness of God in me and in the neighborhood of religion. Whether or not or not they modify, that’s God’s enterprise and that’s their enterprise, however I’m presupposed to be devoted regardless.
WES: Yeah. Yeah, and I really like how you set it within the e-book, that I don’t know if it is going to change others, however I do know that it’s going to change us, that it’s going to change you to be obedient to Jesus. It does change us. And it’s attention-grabbing; we dwell in a time proper now that’s form of attention-grabbing to look at, the place spiritual folks, even those that declare to be followers of Jesus, are making claims that, effectively, turning the opposite cheek ‑‑ and, for some purpose, that all the time will get used, even these phrases ‑‑ “Turning the opposite cheek used to work, or it labored at one time, however it doesn’t work anymore, so now is just not the time to show the opposite cheek. Now could be the time to do these different issues.” And such as you mentioned, we will’t accomplish the desire of Jesus by abandoning the way in which of Jesus. We will’t discover a completely different approach to dwell our lives and to perform on this planet and assume that we’re undertaking the desire of Jesus. The desire of Jesus is for us to be obedient, is for us to be devoted and to do what he mentioned regardless, and, as you mentioned, to have a look at the lifetime of Jesus after which his apostles and the primary 200 years of Christian historical past and assume that, quote‑unquote, “it labored” to show the opposite cheek again then, as in the event that they weren’t persecuted, as in the event that they weren’t thrown to the lions, as in the event that they didn’t face all types of horrible persecution precisely as Jesus mentioned that they might, after which to assume that our world at the moment is a lot extra hostile than their world that we will’t truly do what Jesus instructed us to do. It’s simply ludicrous. Nevertheless it’s actually a misunderstanding, I believe, of your entire gospel, of the cross itself, actually.
TRAVIS: Effectively, I imply, such as you mentioned, in case you learn one thing Jesus says, the first step, after which step two, you ask your self, will this work, and the way you reply that query is dependent upon whether or not or not you’ll comply with it, you’ve missed the boat totally. The query is just not will this work? The query is, is that this devoted to Jesus?
WES: Yeah, yeah, completely. I met a man one time, he was a current ‑‑ I wish to say convert. He had lately been baptized, however I believe that he’d form of been rushed into baptism, possibly, I’m undecided. However he was a jail guard and he labored in an area jail, after which he had a Bible examine with me to say, I’m form of second‑guessing whether or not or not I wish to be a Christian. Actually, he was toying with the thought of being a Muslim as a result of he was listening to the phrases of Jesus, and he mentioned, I work in a violent setting with a lot of criminals and this turning the opposite cheek and loving your enemies, I simply don’t know that I should buy into that. And I believed this is likely to be probably the most intellectually trustworthy purpose for rejecting Jesus that I’ve ever heard.
And on the finish of the day, I simply should current Jesus, and whether or not or not he accepts him ‑‑ I can’t say, effectively, in case you don’t like that model of Jesus, right here’s a distinct model of Jesus that you just would possibly respect extra, or, hey, in case you give this a attempt, it’d be just right for you. Jesus is admittedly, actually trustworthy about that is going to get you in lots of bother, and in case you’re not prepared to choose up your cross and comply with me, in case you’re not able to die for me, then don’t grow to be my disciple. And the truth that we have now type of buried Jesus’ teachings about what it truly seems wish to be a follower of Jesus and haven’t put these out entrance, I believe goes to indicate that we’ve had a distinct strategy to creating Christians whereas possibly not making disciples.
TRAVIS: I believe that’s an excellent distinction. I’ve had a state of affairs the place there’s somebody I used to be finding out with who’s not a believer, and it was attention-grabbing. It wasn’t just like the miracles had been the issue with coming to religion. It was an atheist. It wasn’t just like the flood ‑‑ even this individual mentioned there was in all probability a flood. It was simply attention-grabbing, like among the issues that they had been prepared to just accept, however it was studying the Sermon on the Mount and Jesus saying love your enemies and Jesus saying don’t resist the evil individual, they usually’re like that’s ludicrous. You’ll be able to’t dwell in a world like that. Evil folks will simply run amok in every single place. And also you’re tempted to say, effectively, Jesus doesn’t actually imply that, however as quickly as you begin altering what Jesus says to make his message extra palatable, you’re not creating disciples of Jesus. You’re creating disciples of a tradition that thinks it will work effectively otherwise you’re creating disciples of your self.
A lot of the historical past of interpretation of the Sermon on the Mount ‑‑ and I believe we see it quite a bit at the moment, and it’s one thing that I attempt to not do within the e-book, however we’ll see how good I do. However a lot of the historical past is a historical past of simply looking for inventive methods to get across the teachings of Jesus. How can we love our enemies? Effectively, okay, you’re keen on your enemies. Effectively, who’re my enemies? Effectively, that’s not making use of to politics. That’s not making use of to foreigners. That’s not making use of in case you’re on this profession. That doesn’t apply in case you’re ‑‑ and it’s like, man, okay, I don’t know, possibly. However as a substitute of studying the Sermon on the Mount looking for as few methods as attainable to use it, what if we actually grappled with, what if I utilized it right here? What if I utilized it to this individual? What if I utilized it to this political celebration? What if I utilized it in a time of warfare? Would that change who I’m? And I want we might search to use it extra and no less than be prepared to confess the place we fall quick somewhat than attempt to change what Jesus says to make it really easy that it doesn’t impression our lives.
One of many issues that you just’ll see as you learn the Sermon on the Mount is Jesus will typically examine his instructing to simply what different people do. He’s like, “Your righteousness ought to exceed the scribes and Pharisees.” He says, about greeting those that greet you, “Don’t the Gentiles do the identical?” He says, “Don’t the tax collectors do the identical?” He says, “Don’t provide lengthy prayers the way in which the Gentiles do.” Like so most of the teachings are rooted on this concept that there’s a surpassing righteousness, one thing that’s completely different than the tradition. So if we then interpret loving your enemies to imply, you recognize, don’t kill the man down the road who wronged you, effectively, okay, however everybody agrees you shouldn’t do this. You realize, in case you say, it’s okay to kill supplied you could have an excellent purpose, effectively, then, that’s ‑‑ once more, everybody agrees with that. Jesus is asking us to one thing that not everybody agrees with, and in case your intuitions really feel that it’s mistaken, you is likely to be proper. Perhaps Jesus is saying one thing that we’ll have an preliminary visceral response to. It won’t sit effectively with us. Actually, if Jesus isn’t doing that, then it’s probably that it’s not truly Jesus you’re listening to anymore.
WES: Yeah, yeah. And I take into consideration what number of issues Jesus says within the Sermon on the Mount that apply to so many various folks in so many various conditions with so many various views, particularly at the moment. We’ve talked quite a bit about loving your enemies, however we might additionally discuss sexual immorality and the way Jesus says, hey, it’s higher to pluck your eye out or lower your hand off than it’s to enter hell with your whole elements.
TRAVIS: Yeah, there’s a thousand different issues. Yeah.
WES: And so to take Jesus significantly on that’s simply as radical in our tradition at the moment. However, once more, I hear Christian spiritual folks discussing what does the Bible say about sexual immorality or what does it say about sexual ethics? And we debate quite a bit about, effectively, what does Romans 1 imply or what does 1 Corinthians imply? And we discuss quite a bit about Paul, and folks will even make the declare that, effectively, Jesus was for loving everybody and Jesus wouldn’t be for coming down onerous on sexual sin, and it’s like, wait, have you ever learn the Sermon on the Mount, both? And there’s a lot there that applies to all of us if we take it significantly.
TRAVIS: Yeah, lust itself ‑‑ earlier than you even get to what issues persons are doing, lust itself, he says, is one thing that try to be lopping off limbs for. And so it goes to indicate that Jesus ‑‑ relating to cash, you recognize, it’s onerous to take significantly what he says about cash. When he says, “Don’t retailer up for your self treasure on earth,” I want he would say, like, “Don’t greedily retailer up for your self treasure on earth,” as a result of then I might simply say, okay, so so long as you do it with out greed, you’re good, or you could possibly take what he says and you could possibly discover some angle to make it quite a bit simpler to just accept. However, actually, I believe in case you’re storing up for your self treasure on earth, a accountability comes with that to be giving that treasure away, and so there are lots of ways in which we will learn what Jesus says, whether or not it’s sexual ethics, whether or not it’s wealth, whether or not it’s anger.
There’s truly a humorous factor within the historical past of translation ‑‑ or of the copying of the Sermon on the Mount, the place a phrase will get added to what he says about anger. The place he says, “I say to you to not be indignant together with your brother,” and it provides the phrase “with out trigger.” That’s in among the manuscripts, and it’s not within the earliest ones, however ultimately that received added, and it’s very easy to see why as a result of, you recognize, you possibly can see, you recognize, don’t be indignant, however, dude, there’s some causes you gotta get indignant at somebody, and so we have to simply form of reduce it a little bit bit. However then you definitely ask the query, effectively, everybody agrees you may be indignant with trigger. If there’s a ok trigger, that wouldn’t separate you from the scribes and Pharisees or from anybody. Everybody would agree with that.
And so, yeah, you undergo, and whether or not it’s divorce, oaths ‑‑ that’s a tricky one as a result of, you recognize, how typically will we add to our “sure” and “no” in an effort to make ourselves sound extra credible? And what Jesus desires us to do is don’t add extra phrases to your “sure” and “no.” As a substitute, dwell a lifetime of credibility. That’s quite a bit more durable. It takes quite a bit longer. However it is best to dwell in such a method that individuals will hear your “sure” and it’ll sound the identical as in case you mentioned, “Upon the lifetime of my kids, I give my oath.” You realize, you don’t want so as to add all these phrases in case you’re truly dwelling with the kind of integrity that Jesus is asking us to have.
Nevertheless it applies to lots of areas, and there’s nothing I learn within the Sermon on the Mount and I stroll away considering, whew, okay, I received that one mastered. It’s like each time I learn it, I find yourself recognizing, okay, there’s extra to being a follower of Jesus than what I’m comfy with.
WES: Yeah. And it goes again to what you mentioned a minute in the past, that we discover all types of inventive methods of getting round what Jesus says, and we are saying, effectively, you recognize, that’s clearly hyperbole. He doesn’t really need us to chop our hand off or pluck our eye out. And I might say I agree. I agree; it’s hyperbole. However I all the time use for instance, if I inform you that it’s raining cats and canines exterior, and also you say, effectively, that’s simply ‑‑ that’s a determine of speech; you don’t imply that actually, and then you definitely go exterior as if it’s not raining in any respect, then you definitely’ve made an enormous error in the way you’ve interpreted what I’m saying. So sure, you’re proper, it’s a determine of speech, however you’re mistaken to dismiss it as if a determine of speech or a metaphor or a hyperbole doesn’t truly imply one thing essential. Actually, typically we use these sorts of hyperboles or metaphors or figures of speech as a result of a plain, simply floor‑degree, very primary method of claiming it wouldn’t seize how essential and vital that is.
TRAVIS: Yeah. Hyperbole signifies that a fact has been exaggerated. It doesn’t imply that you just’ve mentioned one thing false, you recognize? And I believe that’s a extremely good illustration with the cats and canines. However, yeah, so Jesus says, you recognize, plucking out eyes and chopping off palms ‑‑ okay, the early church wasn’t actually doing that. However the query it is best to ask, okay, what have you ever truly sacrificed? What have you ever amputated or gotten rid of to do away with lust? I do know lots of people ‑‑ you stroll round with a smartphone in your pocket, you could have entry to pornography 24/7. Okay. Would you be prepared to dwell with out that? Is that one thing you could possibly amputate for the dominion? Is that one thing you could possibly do away with?
You realize, I believe the thought of giving up issues for the dominion as a result of the sacrifice you make now’s far much less damaging than hell will likely be, then these are sacrifices we have to make. However lots of occasions, if we predict it’s hyperbole, we predict, okay, so that you shouldn’t lust, and we simply form of stroll away. However we don’t actually take into consideration the sacrifice that ‑‑ or I don’t wish to say “we” don’t ‑‑ some folks do ‑‑ however it’s widespread or straightforward to not do this.
WES: Yeah. Effectively, I believe that that leads very well to our final query, and that’s, why is it value it? If following Jesus actually does demand sacrifice, if it does demand, on the worst, taking over our cross actually and dying for Jesus, if it calls us to this lifetime of self‑sacrifice, if it calls us to not retailer up treasures on earth, to even hyperbolically lower off our hand and pull out our eye ‑‑ if that’s the life that Jesus calls us to, then why is it value it, and the way can we current it to different folks in a wonderful and compelling method? How will we grow to be disciples, and the way will we persuade others to grow to be disciples if it truly is so expensive?
TRAVIS: Effectively, I don’t assume it’ll be straightforward, however I do assume there are a few issues to bear in mind as you contemplate why you comply with Jesus, and a type of ‑‑ and this isn’t possibly probably the most thrilling one, however the truth that it’s simply true, Jesus actually is ‑‑ like God actually did come to earth. Jesus actually is Lord. You realize, once we discuss concerning the gospel ‑‑ possibly it was N.T. Wright who mentioned one thing just like the gospel is just not the nice suggestion or the nice invitation or the nice recommendation. It’s the excellent news, and the information is declaring one thing that’s true. Jesus actually is Lord. And so in case you care about doing what’s proper and what’s true on this planet, then it does matter.
However secondly, I might say that fact can actually be good and exquisite. That fact of what Jesus says, it takes maybe an amazing quantity of religion to see it, however it actually is a extra lovely world once we love our enemies somewhat than eager to destroy them, or it truly is a extra lovely world when, as a substitute of considering how a lot wealth can I accumulate for myself, I put my belief in God and I retailer up my treasure in heaven, which I believe truly is a reference to utilizing your wealth for the nice of others and for the poor. It truly is a extra lovely world, and I believe we see that once we see acts of generosity. We respect these. And once we see tales of forgiveness, we respect it. We will see magnificence in that. And Jesus is asking us to dwell in a kingdom that isn’t outlined by violence, the buildup of wealth, by hatred, by energy, by rising up in standing, however somewhat it’s a kingdom the place the least are the best and the final is first, and never everybody finds magnificence in that. You realize, there are some who famously assume that that can result in absolute chaos and the weak point of humanity, however I consider there’s magnificence in that, and it’s one thing that the extra we see it, I believe the higher issues are.
However even with these issues, Jesus is particularly requested that query by Peter. That is on the finish of Matthew 19. Peter is saying, Lord, we’ve left all the things for you. Like, is that this value it? And Jesus provides a solution, and it’s a solution that incorporates fact and it’s a solution that incorporates magnificence, however it’s additionally a solution that incorporates hope. He says that there’s no person who, having given up household or possessions or the farms or all this stuff for the dominion who won’t obtain again 100 occasions extra so within the regeneration or within the new world. And he says when that day comes, you’ll obtain a lot extra, together with everlasting life.
And I believe ‑‑ I believe, even now, it’s like once you take a look at the church household, once you take a look at the group of Christ, I’ve extra moms and I’ve extra brothers and sisters. I’ve household and I’ve group, and that’s one thing that makes the struggling value it. Whenever you undergo alone, there’s one thing tragic about that and there’s one thing in that that makes it actually onerous to proceed on, however once you undergo and once you make sacrifices as a part of a group for the widespread good with different people who find themselves doing the identical, then you could have a fellowship in that and a sharing in that that’s transformative for your self and for that group. And like we’ve talked about, possibly typically, on this planet round us, that that’s one thing we pray for.
I keep in mind years in the past, dwelling in Monroe, Louisiana, there was a flood that got here and it flooded our home, and my spouse Lauren was pregnant on the time and we ended up having to go away our home, however you recognize who we left with? Some members of the church got here and we had been in a position to stroll in waist‑deep water from our home to the closest street. That they had a automotive ready for us. They took us to their home and we stayed with them for a number of days. After which we needed to get some issues fastened on our home and we stayed with different members of the church. We had a church that we didn’t even ‑‑ we’d by no means even gone to earlier than despatched us cash to assist with among the repairs. There have been people who we knew who had been household; there have been individuals who we didn’t know who had been household. And my household was additionally very type to us, however we didn’t dwell close to any of my household. My household didn’t dwell in Louisiana, however we had been nonetheless surrounded by household. And I believe following Jesus creates a group of household, and that’s the kind of factor that may assist you to overcome so most of the obstacles of this life.
Plus, lastly, the resurrection and the brand new world. There’s a brand new world coming. There’s a regeneration, and the resurrection actually is why doing what’s true and exquisite issues. The resurrection is admittedly why it issues that Jesus is Lord, as a result of the struggling we have now on this life, I imply, to make use of the phrases of Paul, wouldn’t be value it if there weren’t one thing everlasting and true on the opposite aspect. He says we might be, of all folks, most pitied.
And so I believe the explanation we do that, it’s with hope and with belief that what God says will come about, and that’s why the gospel of Matthew ‑‑ we’re referred to as to hold our cross, and the Sermon on the Mount does take Jesus to the cross, however that’s not the place the gospel ends. The gospel ends with the resurrected Lord being worshiped on a mountain with all authority in heaven and on earth. The story ends with a fee to exit and to seek out, inside all the nations, those that will likely be disciples of the one true king and people who will give their allegiance to him. The resurrection is the place the entire story culminates.
So like Philippians 2, Jesus was equal with God, and but he “didn’t regard equality with God a factor to be grasped, however he emptied himself, he took the type of a servant, he got here within the look of human, he humbled himself and have become obedient to the purpose of dying, even dying on a cross. Due to this fact, God extremely exalted him and bestowed upon him a reputation which is above each title, that on the title of Jesus each knee would bow, of these in heaven, these on earth, and people beneath the earth, and each tongue would confess that Jesus Christ is Lord of the glory of God the Father.” The one who humbles himself will likely be exalted.
There’s a super quantity of humility that is available in following Jesus. You’ll be able to’t put your self first, however God will see, he’ll exalt, he’ll elevate you up, and I believe that makes it value it.
WES: Yeah, completely. Amen, Brother. I really like the already and the not but of what you’re saying, Brother. Thanks. Thanks for this dialog. Thanks to your e-book. I can’t anticipate different folks to learn it. It’s unbelievable. And thanks most of all to your work within the kingdom, Brother.
TRAVIS: Thanks a lot, and thanks for studying the e-book and for giving me your ideas. Thanks for this chance. I really like the work that you just do. I really like your podcast. I really like your books and your writing. You’ve had a optimistic impression on my life and my ministry, and it means a complete lot.
WES: Thanks, Brother.
Thanks a lot for listening to the Radically Christian Bible Examine Podcast. You probably have only a second, we might love so that you can fee and evaluate this podcast on iTunes or wherever you’re listening. It actually does assist extra folks uncover this content material. I additionally wish to thank our company who be a part of me every week; Beth Tabor, who volunteers her time to transcribe this podcast; and our entire McDermott Street Church household who make it attainable for us to supply this Bible examine for you. Now let’s all exit and love like Jesus.
The put up What Does Matthew Train Us About Discipleship? with Travis Bookout appeared first on Radically Christian.
